[mrbandit]

If I had to put a "hope for" number out there it would be 400hp-450hp. I want to be able to drive my car several days a week and enjoy it as well as stay competitive with newer cars. Like Joe I bought My TA with a several years old rebuild that had never been ran. Well they said for about 30 seconds. I did get it running and performed a break in, but that was almost 2 years ago. I know, I know....I should have been done by now. My project sadly has taken the backseat while I researched and purchased the fire am suspension. The TurboForce system wasn't added to the project until a few months ago. Again like Joe I am going to have to tear the motor down to check it. The engine was rebuilt using a PAW kit and the previous owner couldn't recall the cam type. With PAW out of business I can't contact them to see what he purchased. Not to mention two of the large freeze plugs fell out of the block during the engine start. The engine is on a stand right now and visibly there are no cracks, but the machine shop will have the last word on that subject. I did find it odd that the same plug just beside the manifold exhaust flange on both sides are what fell out. Hopefully nothing is wrong, but I will be prepared for bad news. I was planning on installing a cam similar to the one used in the revival car. I was hoping to go with a 2043 Nunzi cam, but that was before adding the TurboForce to my plans and I understand that Nunzi is retired now. I had a 2042 in my last TA and I loved it. Being that I am new to forced induction I am going to start with the system as close as I can to the original. Once I have the system and engine worked out I am not opposed to exploring the use of intercoolers. My TA has a brand new 2-1/4 pypes dual system with cats on it when I bought it, so I will have to go with a waste gate. I am looking at airesearch T04B units like the one used on the revival bird, but I'm open to suggestions on other brands. I'm trying not to break the bank, but I do understand that turbos aren't cheap.

My engine is not #s matching, but the carb is correct. I'm going to email Cliff R to get the rebuild kit I need and then its off to Tom Benvengi for a rebuild with necessary mods. The engine is a 400 bored 30 with 6x-4 and a performer intake. The distributer had been rebuilt by Rocky during the rebuild. Regardless of what happens with the block there is my current situation.

[Tom Vaught]

Craig, Did you have this wastegate:

DeltaGate:

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/part...e_Mark_II/2099

"Turbonetics DeltaGate Mark II Wastegates
Designed for durability, with a 1.250 stainless steel valve, nomex/silicone diaphragm and with a unique stand- off actuator section, the DELTAGATE can control boost on engines that develop 350-400 HP. With the addition of a Variable Boost Control Regulator (PN 10402) the DELTAGATE is fully adjustable over a wide boost range."

Vs this wastegate: RG45

"RG-45 Wastegates (700+ HP) Features V-Band connections in & out, a 45mm valve dianeter and cast stainless steel base for strength and durability. Measures slightly more than the slim Evolution Wastegate. A high temp fluro-silicone diaphragm allows predictable and repeatable boost control."

Lots of people use/sell this wastegate:

http://www.google.com/#hl=en&tbo=d&s...w=1096&bih=526

Tom Vaught

[Craig Hendrickson]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Craig, Did you have this wastegate:

DeltaGate:

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/part...e_Mark_II/2099

"Turbonetics DeltaGate Mark II Wastegates
Designed for durability, with a 1.250 stainless steel valve, nomex/silicone diaphragm and with a unique stand- off actuator section, the DELTAGATE can control boost on engines that develop 350-400 HP. With the addition of a Variable Boost Control Regulator (PN 10402) the DELTAGATE is fully adjustable over a wide boost range."

Tom Vaught

Tom, that's similar, but not exactly the same as the waste gate on my Revival car. I had Kern go through it to freshen it up (which it needed) after I got the Revival assembled. It also does have a variable boost control, but it's control is external and it only serves to increase the boost beyond the base (uncontrolled) level. Since I already have more than enough boost, I've never used it. Some of our local customers back in the day used the variable boost control and I've personally seen 15psi with it cranked up.

Craig

[Joe37]

Joe again, I have the distributor all cleaned and ready to set the advance. I have it on a distributor machine so I can set the mechanical about anywhere it needs to be. I know what a standard engine likes and can set them pretty quick.
What does a boosted engine need for mechanical advance?
Where should I limit the stops and when should it start to advance?
What about the vacuum advance, is it still used along with the electronic controller?


Joe

[Craig Hendrickson]

Originally Posted by Joe37

Joe again, I have the distributor all cleaned and ready to set the advance. I have it on a distributor machine so I can set the mechanical about anywhere it needs to be. I know what a standard engine likes and can set them pretty quick.
What does a boosted engine need for mechanical advance?
Where should I limit the stops and when should it start to advance?
What about the vacuum advance, is it still used along with the electronic controller?

Joe,

I had a delay in conacting Ken Crocie. It turns out his computer crashed and is not yet back up. If you want his phone number, PM me and I'll provide it.

Anyway, I wanted his input because of his recent experience with the CC dyno T-F. His numbers are pretty much what I would've recommended.

12BTDC initial at 600-800 RPM
24 deg (crank) mechanical advance at 2400RPM, i.e., 36deg total
unboosted vacuum advance at 10inHG: 14 deg, i.e., 50 deg total
BTM retard curve: 1-2 deg per PSI, i.e., 10deg retard at 7-10psi, i.e., 26-28 total @ 7-10psi

Fine tune from there in the actual car.

Of course, you want to creep up on these numbers from the conservative side.

Craig

[Joe37]

Thanks Craig, thats what I was looking for. Its pretty close to how we set n/a engines. Once in the car running, we will creep up on the final settings.

Joe

[KEN CROCIE]

I think we invented the "dial a boost" back in '77. We had a customers car come in witha Fairbanks TH400 and a "dial a shift".This varied the amount of vacuum applied to the modulator to change shift "feel". We got the idea to apply this to the unused port in the (then new) Deltagate. Dial a boost was born. Were we first? I dont know , but there weren't a lot of CO's in the turbo biz back then.
Fuel pumps: We used the Holley "blue" with the Moroso "high pressure spring" which boosted the pressure to 20 psi, enableing boost pressures of 10-12 psi. At that time we retained the boost compensated mechanical pump which was much more reliable than the Holley elec. and came up with an elec.pump automatic bypass device so that the elec. pump would not have to run full time.

[CROCIE JR]

Moroso PN 65770. Says 19psi. Current item. Use a AN washer for back up on the spring for fine tunning of the PSI.
More stuff flooding in. Remember the black, plastic, 2 1/8", enclosed rectangular gauge cluster. Held 3 SW delux gauges. Had a Fuel pressure, bonnet pressure and manifold pressure. My job as a 7 year old was to watch all three gauges (usually taped to the windshield or in my lap) and report my tracking data to the Boss. Those cars hauled ass. 2.41 gears and a th400. Only way to go! First gear was fantastic. It just kept pulling to 60mph or something. My dad was always trying to find the limits. So 14-15 psi boost, 301e rayjay w/1.3 housing and 400-455 cubes. Very fun. And dont think there were not "Special" turbo cars at H-O. Pioneers for sure.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by KEN CROCIE

I think we invented the "dial a boost" back in '77. We had a customers car come in witha Fairbanks TH400 and a "dial a shift".This varied the amount of vacuum applied to the modulator to change shift "feel". We got the idea to apply this to the unused port in the (then new) Deltagate. Dial a boost was born. Were we first? I dont know , but there weren't a lot of CO's in the turbo biz back then.
Fuel pumps: We used the Holley "blue" with the Moroso "high pressure spring" which boosted the pressure to 20 psi, enableing boost pressures of 10-12 psi. At that time we retained the boost compensated mechanical pump which was much more reliable than the Holley elec. and came up with an elec.pump automatic bypass device so that the elec. pump would not have to run full time.

So when are you going to figure out how to post those pictures of the HO racing Flow Bench, Ken? (;>)

Tom Vaught

[CROCIE JR]

Hes got some small vac. lines running to the side of the computer tower right now. Might be cooling lines of some sort. There is a diaphram, and I see some Dorman brass. I will call him tonite to check on him. He has been barking a lot, and mumbling. But mostly barking. Its hard to hear over the Beethoven.

[Joe37]

Hi guys, work is progressing on the T/A, the brakes are being finalized so the car can be moved around to get the engine out. Our next step is going to be partial engine tear down for inspection then on to the test stand for a break-in run.

I have a question about waste gates and blow off valves. Being as turbo stupid as I am, can you explain what the each do and why you need them? I only work on diesels and we never have any turbo problems other then the Ford 6.0L, and those were just bad from the get go.

We would like to limit the boost on the T/A to about 6 or 7 till it gets some miles on it and we feel comfortable with how its running since the car hasn't been road worthy since the early '90s. We are sticking with the original Turboforce parts for now as this is what the budget allows. This is also a four speed car, with a 3.42 rear axle, and with that combination, there won't be much room for error between shifts.

Joe

[Craig Hendrickson]

H-O used both a wastegate and a blow-off valve on the TurboForce, but not at the same time and not always.

A wastegate is on the inlet side (between exhaust manifolds and turbo exhaust scroll). It bleeds off exhaust flow and pressure to control the boost indirectly. A wastegate lives in a hot environment being attached to an exhaust pipe somewhere. We usually ran them without an outlet pipe and muffler; you can definitely hear the "whoosh" when it opens up.

A blow-off valve is on the outlet side (between turbo outlet scroll and the pressure hat). It opens when the boost pressure exceeds its setting so it controls the boost directly. A blow-off valve lives in a more benign environment than a wastegate and is more effective on controlling the boost into the carburetor when you go from WOT to throttles closed quickly. However, a blow-off valve potentially lets the turbo overspeed and therefore operate further away from the sweet spot island on the turbo map.

Even though the wastegate is a little more expensive, that's what I would recommend. As a matter of fact, the earlier versions of the TurboForce pressure hat had a pad cast in the side which could be machined for mounting a blow-off valve. The final and best version of the pressure hat had eliminated that pad.

Craig

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by Craig Hendrickson

Even though the wastegate is a little more expensive, that's what I would recommend. As a matter of fact, the earlier versions of the TurboForce pressure hat had a pad cast in the side which could be machined for mounting a blow-off valve. The final and best version of the pressure hat had eliminated that pad.

Craig

I remember that Pad.

Tom Vaught

[BruceWilkie]

Question...did you guys ever try adapting a Corvair turbo vac advance/boost retard to a stock distributor?

They worked well and allowed @10 degrees retard.(iirc book said 9-11) My turbo Spyder I ran @24 initial which didnt advance further till @ 4000 then went to 36 degrees by @4500.
By/between 1-2 psi boost It gave a full 10 degrees retard. So basically from 2 psi boost... advance was 14 degrees till 4000 rpm and totaled 26 degrees by 4500. I never checked but would guess vac advance at light load high vacuum would add 10 degrees. Regardless it worked quite well and IMO more reliable way to control boost retard than trusting electronic control. On 99+ octane or better I ran over 20 psi without issue...when pump gas went to hell in the 70's I had to add water injection or find race gas or av gas.(not conveniant for a regular driver). My water injection was a simple boost activated/regulated "spray gun principle" system pre compressor and quite effective.

The Corvair turbo vac/boost canister is not easy to find and kind of pricey these days(Clarks corvair parts) and not just a simple bolt on to a Delco v8 distributor. (point or hei) Doable though.
I do know there are some GM Ford and Mopar apps that had a port on each side of the advance canister. These might be the better alternative as boost applied on the vac advance side would/could allow retard provided the diaphram in the canister can push the arm beyond its static position.

I'm sort of keeping an eye out for one...anyone know of that type cannister on anything, I'll get one and figure out, not just how to mount one, but make it adjustable as well. If there is one where the cannister allows access to the spring and diaghram that would be even better.
Thanks

[Craig Hendrickson]

Bruce,

You are referring to this:



That's how H-O supplied the kit back in the day although I made this one for my "TurboForce Revival" Bird from a new Corvair unit and a used HEI vac advance. There was also another application that had a boost retard feature, but I don't remember which, but I think Ken Crocie knows. As you mentioned, H-O had to modify the standard distributor vacuum advance for the larger-in-diameter HEI, which is shown in the picture.

Yes, they are quite pricey today, if you can even find one. That's why it makes sense to use the MSD Boost Timing Master (BTM) instead if you don't have the one H-O provided. I'd guess that Joe has one, but I know that Mike does not. But, I have the adapted Corvair unit on mine.

[Craig Hendrickson]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

I remember that Pad.

Here ya go, Tom:



On my 1978 Turbo Macho T/A with 1972 455 engine (not the W72 engine), I had both a wastegate and a blow-off valve. I had the last generation pressure hat specially modified by Kern in order to fit the blow-off valve. It was on the other side of the hat than shown in the above picture. It was a belt & suspenders kind of solution to boost control.

[BruceWilkie]

I may just make something Craig. Maybe use a vac secondary diaghram and a pair of springs from old vac advance units put springs on both sides. Shouldnt be hard to fab a can,bracket etc.. Might look a bit odd...maybe not if I do some detailin'. Maybe make it adjustable too.

[Joe37]

What this car has must be the waste gate, its mounted down under the engine on the exhaust system. I only looked at for a minute or two. It has a small hose running to it, right dead center of the top. I assume the boost pressure opens this at a set point. Is it adjustable? The whole top seemed to rotate but it could just be loose or defective.

So if I understand this right, the waste gate controls the exhaust going to the turbo. As boost comes up the waste gate opens at a pre set pressure thus dumping excess exhaust away from the turbo. This seems like a good choice as the turbo would not need to work any harder then needed.

A blow off valve is on the clean side of the turbo and acts like a pre set pop off valve. Once it opens, the turbo can still wind up due to the excess exhaust build up in the system thus over speeding the turbo shaft. Does the turbo know the blow off is open? or does it continue building boost only to have the blow off dumping the excess away? I can see how it would limit the amount to the engine, but it seems a funny way of doing it.

Thanks for the lessons,

Joe

[BruceWilkie]

The waste gate controls speed of turbo if only a blow off was used the boost would be limited but the turbo now unloaded when blow-off opens would zip to overspeed. Also blow off valve helps keep shaft speed up when the car is shifted to next gear and the rpm drops so it aids shift rpm recovery too. nice to have both if only one choice the wastegate is more important than the blow-off on a turbo motor. Blow off also prevents bending large or weak throttle blades when throttle is snapped close after high boost.

[Joe37]

Where would you dump the blow off to?

This is a small turbo and I suspect will spool very quickly. I don't think lag time will be any problem and with a four speed you will never feel it.

I will get some pictures of the waste gate.

Joe