[SWEETJUDGE]

what would be the correct procedure to do a body swap or vin swap???
heres what i got, 70 GTO unmolested, everything is there that it came with from the factory, except the ROT & RUST, the cowl under windshield is gone, & the body is completely shot.i thinking of picking up a lemans & swapp parts, body panels, vins???? & give rebirth to this GTO.
any help or insight to this would be a great help
i dont want to part it out or junk it

[bdk1976]

Aren't you the same person that was fretting over hidden VINs a possible Judge clone a while back? And now you are asking for advice on a rebody? Unbelievable!

[SWEETJUDGE]

YES, BUT IM NOT CLONEING ANYTHING IM TRYING TO GIVE A GTO REBIRTH, all the sheetmetal is shot , gone nothing to even work with, shame its an all original #s matching 4 spd car.
i will be using everything but the sheetmetal off the car,eng trans frame suspension,rear
IM TRYING TO SAVE THIS CAR LEGALLY

any help???????

my personal concerns were i didnt just sell my 30K harley for a lemans with judge emblems.
see my point.

[bdk1976]

Not really - you're still talking about the misrepresentation of a car. Do a search for VIN swap topics on these forums - it's been covered MANY times in the past.

The general concensus from all of these discussions seems to be that the only way to do this properly is to build around the existing VINs of the trashed car.

[SWEETJUDGE]

what does one do or recommend when the cowl under the windshield is gone rotted away????
i would use this so i wouldnt get into the vin swapp issue, but theres just nothing there

i dont want to create FRANKENSTIEN just a 70 gto

[69lm69gp]

The answer is here. For those living in Connecticut.

Connecticut DMV : Composite Vehicles

But it is not the answer you are looking for. Basicly car 1 + car 2 = car 3 with a new VIN.

Without the original body I would not consider the car GTO but a LeMans with GTO trim and therefor a clone

[rzrektd]

The correct and ethical way to fix your problem is to get busy replacing body panels. If you say you have or can get ahold of a different body, use it as a donor instead. The vin follows the body and is always frowned upon when it is tampered with. Personally, I would feel proud of my accomplishments of replacing body panels than replacing a vin tag. That is the route I went. Bought a GTO that should have been scrapped. Replaced parts of cowl, firewall, whole floor, floor braces, LS rocker, LS outer fenderwell, LS Quarter, Rear trunk floor and braces, Front Fenders, lower qtr panels LS & RS, and tail light panel.

Even if I did fubar the car, it is more gratifying attemping to do it right than swapping a vin tag.

If you need help on your car, just post here with your questions and someone will help you out.

[SWEETJUDGE]

from the responses im getting i guess i have to work with the ROT, my problem is i dont want to dump 15K in a car to get 15K for it. the car may or may not be worth that kind of money but complete #s matching cars are becomming harder & harder to find. If i had welding skills i would attempt the restoration myself, but im afraid of a bigger disaster

[cwolf]

I have signed up at my local community college to take welding classes.If you plan on keeping your GTO wouldn't it be worth it in a few years the value would go up for a # matching car wouldn't it?

[pippintook]

I would think if you don't have the skills, then switching the body, sounds like it could save you a lot of money.
.
I agree it would likely not be ethical. As one day the car will likely be resold and someone could not get told the truth about the body switch. Though, for me , even if the body was switched and everything else was correct, it would still be a very nice car. I guess if you never (is that possible?) plan on selling the car then this would be less of a concern.
.
I am not sure about the ethical argument though...basically guys say that you can not switch a body, as it is unethical. I tend to agree, but consider...in your case, it sounds like you have a complete rust bucket. So, lets just say you need to replace
the fenders, doors, quarters, trunk floor, floor, rad support, inner fenders, frame, rear tail panel, steel dash support on this rust bucket...basically , all you might have left of the 'original' car's body is the bumpers and roof. So, guys are saying it is fine to replace all these parts and cut around the vin on firewall and dash and this will be ethical. Yet, this so called ethical car will have approx. 90%-95% of its body replaced. What about a mint 70 GTO Judge that had a severe head on crash and needed entire new front end, including the firewall and dash. Would repairing this with a complete donor car sheet metal be unethical?

I see tons of so called 'original' cars that the owners state they have replaced much of original body parts. So, is it ok to replace fenders, doors, quarter, frame, etc etc...and these cars are still 'original'?
.
I guess , if you keep the parts that have the vin stamped on them (ie. dash, firewall...not sure on GTO if firewall has vin stamp behind heater motor, like on firebird), then guys are saying this is ethically ok?
.
I am not trying to say anyone is right or wrong...just trying to discuss this issue.

[SWEETJUDGE]

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM
EDUCATION IS PRICELESS

great idea i'll have to look into some tech programs in my area

[SWEETJUDGE]

I APPRECIATE everyones input on this
im just trying to do the right thing

[goatman-68]

I was in the same boat as you, but my GTO is a plain jane and will never have the value of a heavily optioned car. I could have got a LeMans rust free shell for maybe a couple thousand, but i chose to repair the existing shell. All that was good on my shell was the roof and most of the cowl. Fortunately my front fenders and hood are in mint condition. I spent $1700.00 in sheet metal and paid $2600.00 in labor having all the panels welded in. I do feel better reusing the original shell even though the rust free replacement would have been nice.

Here is a link to my shell, which you may have seen already.

body

[SWEETJUDGE]

WOW nice work
im stuck here I always try the easy fix but if it huants me in the end, its not worth it

[oldblueponcho]

I smell a clone no matter how I figure it. 4 years ago we had to throw away our rare '76 formula 400 4 speed car. One of about 30 for the Canadian market, as it optioned out. Over severe rot. That still haunts me. But not as much as if I had have cloned it.

[rzrektd]

I agree sheet metal is sheet metal. I have no problem taking a lemans fender and puting it on my GTO or even taking major body panels off a lemans body and put on a GTO body. Where the ethics lie for me anyhow is in the vin tag itself. It is the insider trading of car restoration when tampering with the tags because now you don't know what you are getting or even proving what you own once a vin tag is replaced. All traceability is lossed. You can tell if a vin tag has been changed becuase the factory uses special rivets at least on new vehicles because the factory uses a special rivet that is illegal to posses in the general public. You can get around this by cutting the sheet metal around the vin tag and grafting into the donor body.

I know someone that as of two years ago had 14 GTO vin tags and matching titles. Imagine what damage he could do with those if changing vin tags became a common practice among GTOs?

You will be more satisfied with your project if you take the time to replace the panels.

If you are concerned about getting a return on the car after it is finished when dealing with a completly diagnosed cancer car, it is hard to get any return for your labor but I won't say it can't be done because I am hoping for it myself.

[green66gto]

I usually just read these posts and never put in my 2 cents but this time I can't resist. I just finished a 3 year restoration on my 66 gto and I am ready to start on my 69 ragtop. I saved every reciept from my 66 and when I finished the car I never even added them up. Know why? Because climbing in my goat and cruising around is priceless. If your looking for a return on investment buy stocks and bonds.There is no way I will ever recover what I have in my car in time alone, let alone the dollars I spent on it. In my opinion thats not what it's about. The feeling of satisfaction for what I have accomplished and saving a part of Pontiac history is enough return for my investment. Bash away!!!!

[Jerry H.]

Regardless of your opinon on this matter, if you think the 'rebodying' and switching the vin of rusty cars is rare, then you are very naive! This has been going on since the days of the days of the guys restoring Model T's. You might be surprised if you actually knew how many of the super high dollar restorations have actually been rebodied. Although I personally have never been tempted, I just don't know what I would do if the need came up. If I had a documented 65 Tri Power Convertible, or 69 Ram Air IV Judge Convertible that was a complete just bucket with all body parts rusty, and had a perfect donor body, It would be a hard choice. Can any of you really say what you would do for sure?

The problem lies in not doing the job correctly. If it is done correctly, you are not doing anything that the factory didn't do.

Would I buy a car if I knew it had been rebodied? If it had been done correctly (i.e, you wouldn't know it unless you were told) I wouldn't have a problem with it. I'll probably take a lot of heat for this post, but so be it.

[md1twal3]

You will NEVER get all of the rust out of what you are trying to "save". I agree, goatman-68, nice work...VERY nice work....BUT...what is "original" on yours? Roof, cowl and inner rear window panels...right? Don't they come from the same die as the Lemans roof, cowl & inner rear window panels???????? The rest of what you have is aftermarket sheet metal...did you really restore an "original" GTO?

It is all metal...the only thing "unique" for a 1969 A-body (and many others) is the VIN tag and trim tag. Frames, motors and most trans all carry the same part numbers too....they are just stamped with indicators unique to the VIN...

Why cut up a perfectly solid "A- BODY" to weld, piece, by piece, into another rusty "A-BODY" when you can make a few cuts and accomplish the same thing by transfering a firewall/cowl??????

Neither way is necessarily "right", according to a majority of this entire forum, so why not do it the best way of the two that you can....and cheaper?

I say rebody it...in the end, it will truly be a better car & a higher quality (than the "other" methods recommended here) for anyone that buys it down the road...

[bdk1976]

Why bother with a VIN swap rather that just restore the nice car as a clone? The only reason to do this is to deceive others.

That being said, I'm somewhat on the fence on this subject. The only reason for my initial post is that I rememebered a thread a few months back where SWEETJUDGE was worried that the car he had bought might not be "authentic" and not and not wanting to discuss details on the forum in order to keep information from the "cloners" out there. Now he is basically asking for advice to do the same thing that he feared was done to him (his car turned out to be a real Judge IIRC).

Personally I am on the fence regarding this issue. I can definitely see both sides of the arguement - I think it is ridiculous that so much value is associate with a certain series of numbers, while at the same time I would be a fool not to take this into account in my own dealings.

I know if I were in the situation I might consider going about "swapping VINS" by cutting out the relevant pieces of sheetmetal containing the VINs (including hidden VINs) from the junk car and welding them into the donor. This would actually be a considerable amount of work to do right, but would likely be easier than trying to revive a complete basket case.