[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Junqueboi:
Please. "Step-up to the plate correctly?". So you advocate spending 10 - 100% more hours & $ to cobble up a "correct" car rather than starting with something solid?

Maybe you need to realize that most of us have jobs, families, & lives to lead. I'll be damned if I'd waste all that money & precious time to "step up to the plate" when I could be spending the $/time on gas, road trips, other projects, etc.

Good grief, I say if everything is documented & nothing is misrepresented, do what's practical & get your car rolling. And don't give us crap about "if you don't have the $ to do it (your way), you don't deserve to own a GTO".

Not all of us have the luxury of learning how to weld/restore/etc either so we do what we can. My two cents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not advocate spending 10-100% more hours and money to cobble up a correct car. I advocate rebuilding a car correctly. I do not advocate breaking laws by swaping vin tags. If anyone wants to swap vin tags, by all means go for it. Do what you want because I don't have to live with it. Junqueboi, I am 24 yrs old and I have worked since I was 15, going on 2 yrs married, I have a mortgage, house projects, car payments, utility payments, and all our college tuition payments plus still going to college. I used to work 65hrs a week plus part time college with just recently getting a break. I don't have kids and I don't have a lot of money. No silverspoon in my mounth and no a$$ wiping with 100 dollar bills. I have had my car since I was 20 and bought it as a $2500 basket case. It is probably in the same condition as the car in this topic and given my life story, I have been able to get somewhere with it. From a body work perspective I have aprox. 1500 dollars in materials, 1000 dollars in tools/equipment, and less than 200 hours (heavy estimate) of work on the body. This is quite common for automotive restorations. Nothing out of the norm. I understand you would rather be cruising in the car and so forth instead of restoring the car correctly, and with SJ owning two other cars, maybe this isn't SweetJudge's top priority.

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Junqueboi:
Please. "Step-up to the plate correctly?". So you advocate spending 10 - 100% more hours & $ to cobble up a "correct" car rather than starting with something solid?

Maybe you need to realize that most of us have jobs, families, & lives to lead. I'll be damned if I'd waste all that money & precious time to "step up to the plate" when I could be spending the $/time on gas, road trips, other projects, etc.

Good grief, I say if everything is documented & nothing is misrepresented, do what's practical & get your car rolling. And don't give us crap about "if you don't have the $ to do it (your way), you don't deserve to own a GTO".

Not all of us have the luxury of learning how to weld/restore/etc either so we do what we can. My two cents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN! Why take the hard, expensive way to get the same end product????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The hard, expensive way to get the same end product is shortcutting and replacing vin tags. Going the other route will enable you to fully understand the structure of the car, how it went together, and a undescribable respect for your car. Not to mention all the priceless knowledge and skills that could be acquired by restoring your car correctly. I should move to florida and start swaping vin tags for a living because it is easier.

[gtohunter]

There's a difference between "tampering"; knowingly altering the vin tag/numbers, or otherwise presenting a car as something it's not, and otherwise extenuating circumstances that might allow for legally correcting a vin related issue.
I bought a car recently which had a new vin tag issued by the Illinois State Police, due to damage done to the dash, which was repaired. The State Police affixed a replacement tag to the door jamb, documented it, and assigned the original vin# to it. Brought the car to South Carolina, and had the State Police check out the car, and they signed off on it after checking it out, and I have a clean, legal South Carolina title. In my case, I bought this car knowing that it's value might be something less than it could be, but I don't care, as I'll not sell it anyway. This car is a 100% numbers matching original car, and damage was done to the vin tag. So what...it's legally registered, and documented.

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:
MY BOTTOM LINE do we revive these cars or junk em ????????

im all for reviving aslong as NO ONE is MISLED into something they wernt aware of... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But laws will be broken, unless you live in florida. If you do break the law, does it make sense to document it. Just see what happens if you get pulled over by a cop and he decides he wants to run your car and notices your vin tag was changed. It is possible because the factory rivets are not available to public and you will get fined for having them if caught. It will be a long night for you.

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SWEETJUDGE:
A LOSS TO THEM IS NOTHING to us ITS EVERYTHING

those people wipe thier asses with $100 bills
we restore our cars with it </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I checked your profile and you have 2 other GTO's not including the one in this topic. You may want to see what you are using for tiolet paper

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blown Nitro Pontiac:
During a phone conversation with Scott Tiemann, we were arguing over the efficacy of swapping VIN tags and rebodying cars.

He insisted it was OK, using all the flawed logic that all you boneheads are also using, to justify his position.

I then asked him "Hey, Scott; how many rust free GTOs have you sacrificed to do a body swap to save a rusty LeMans?"

"None."

"I rest my case, Scott."

Hint:

Follow the money.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

News flash. I regret to inform you that we now live in a cost driven/ no time for anything world. We only use logic that suits the current situations. We will change our logic as our agenda sees fit.

[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nathaniel:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Junqueboi:
Please. "Step-up to the plate correctly?". So you advocate spending 10 - 100% more hours & $ to cobble up a "correct" car rather than starting with something solid?

Maybe you need to realize that most of us have jobs, families, & lives to lead. I'll be damned if I'd waste all that money & precious time to "step up to the plate" when I could be spending the $/time on gas, road trips, other projects, etc.

Good grief, I say if everything is documented & nothing is misrepresented, do what's practical & get your car rolling. And don't give us crap about "if you don't have the $ to do it (your way), you don't deserve to own a GTO".

Not all of us have the luxury of learning how to weld/restore/etc either so we do what we can. My two cents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

AMEN! Why take the hard, expensive way to get the same end product????? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The hard, expensive way to get the same end product is shortcutting and replacing vin tags. Going the other route will enable you to fully understand the structure of the car, how it went together, and a undescribable respect for your car. Not to mention all the priceless knowledge and skills that could be acquired by restoring your car correctly. I should move to florida and start swaping vin tags for a living because it is easier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You probably ought to step back on the car knowledge gig...I don't have to disassemble a rusty POS to know how it goes together. I have a degree for auto technology, 10 years of franchise dealership time and numerous other rustorations under my belt over the past 25 years that I have been associated with cars.....I am sure I am not alone, either. yes...RUSTorations. I have replaced all panels with aftermarket, I have clipped cars (66 Caddy), and I have patched and mudded. They look nice when done, but there is a EASIER and CHEAPER way to do it RIGHT.....REBODY.

You used several structural aftermarket panels right?....they are not unique to a GTO are they? Nope...they will fit Chevelle, Lemans, Tempest, Olds Cutlass, right? How is that any better or "the right way" to restore a GTO over taking a GM stamped part, that is already welded in?

So you use parts that are not original to your GTO or GM, plus you have non-original welds and seams....How is that "the right way to restore" a car, as opposed to using a GM made (and assembled)body?

It isn't just about the "easy way" out. It is about quality and cost too. You act like there is DNA in the metal or something that ties the body to the vin... They are just mass produced panels, that have a unique number, affixed with mass produced rivets (and easily available too).

I have seen what many of you call "clones" (a.k.a. body swaps) done by reporatble restoration shops, and I don't care what any of the "experts" say....you cannot tell....hidden vins and all.

[BLKBRD]

The bottom line is that you won't be saving a numbers matching car if you swap the shell and the VIN. If you really are not interested in misrepresenting this car as something it is not, leave the VIN on the donor and swap over all of the other stuff. That way it will be obvious to future buyers that it is not GTO. You've already got a Judge, what are the chances that you are actually going to keep this "GTO" and not sell it.

[cat tracker]

In 1967 I started my career in Law Enforcement. I am now retired. Over the years I noticed that all criminals had the same mind set.

(1) They thought the "LAW" applied to everyone else but did not apply to them.

(2) The "LAW" was designed to be altered depending on how much money was involved.

(3) The "LAW" may be written in stone, but is interpeted by the guy sitting in the adjacent cell. aka "Jailhouse Lawyers"

(4) When they all went to the "Big House" they all sang the same song. It was titled "I DIDN'T DO IT"

[frankengoat]

you've got an original gto that is dead. you want to bring it back to life using a lemans, but you don't want to create a frankenstien. the car you have is gone, if the cowl is rusted, the car is gone. a vin swap means your not just reskinning a gto, your creating a gto where one did not exist before. i bought a '71 lemans conv., that turned out to be a '70 gto (24267). i spent years collecting the right body panels to turn it back into a gto. now it beautiful, and it's name is FRANKENGOAT. i am proud of the fact that i brought a car back to originality, from the lemans dead so to speak. this is different from salvaging a vin tag and calling a lemans a gto. i proudly wear the frankengoat tag, you are just a counterfeiter.

[md1twal3]

SWEET JUDGE...It is pretty clear that you won't get a straight answer here/ Funny, though...if I recall, in an original GM parts book, cowls are listed as a replacement part for A-bodys. I suppose is what all of these are saying is that even if you had an OEM NOS cowl....your car would still be a fraud.

Also....what makes an a-body fender, door, quarter or anythying else a Lemans? What makes it GTO? Funny how they all carry the same part number for most replacment parts, and it is acceptible to take lemans brakes, radiators, seats, on & on to restore a GTO, but it is still a GTO...but you can't take a Lemans body and use it for a GTO, or it is a fraud.

Boy....I hope that any of you that "restored your GTO the right way" didn't use one "lemans" part, or you did it the wrong way...it is no longer a "True GTO"

[frankengoat]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">n </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
md1twal3 you miss the point, if you have brought a real gto back to it's originality, you should be happy, but represent it as such - a reconditioned gto. if you take the vin tag from a gto(because that's all that is left) and slap it on a lemans, you should also represent it as such - a reconditioned lemans. don't get into stupid arguements about how many cars out there have new sheetmetal, if it has no rust - it's probably new, real gto or not. if anyone presents a 35 year old car with no wear -for $20,000 - and you buy it as such - you deserve what you get. which is probably a reconditioned lemans. if you retag a lemans as a gto, you are doing so only to mislead the buyer. how can you defend that?

[md1twal3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by frankengoat:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">n </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
md1twal3 you miss the point, if you have brought a real gto back to it's originality, you should be happy, but represent it as such - a reconditioned gto. if you take the vin tag from a gto(because that's all that is left) and slap it on a lemans, you should also represent it as such - a reconditioned lemans. don't get into stupid arguements about how many cars out there have new sheetmetal, if it has no rust - it's probably new, real gto or not. if anyone presents a 35 year old car with no wear -for $20,000 - and you buy it as such - you deserve what you get. which is probably a reconditioned lemans. if you retag a lemans as a gto, you are doing so only to mislead the buyer. how can you defend that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Miss the point? Stupid Arguements? What the hell are you talking about?

I guess I don't see how I miss the point, but see that you are missing mine. This entire thread is about replacing rusty parts in one form or fashion, right? It is about restoring a vehicle, using one method or another, right?

My point is very simple. Probably 95% of these A-body parts (lemans, tempest and GTO) carry the same part number...whether it is bolt on or weld on....agreed? (How can you not agree).

So....if they all carry the same part numbers, new, used, aftermarket or otherwise....what makes them a Lemans specific part? Or a GTO specific part? NOTHING!!!!!!!! (again, how can you disagree here).

With that understood, what is the difference, if I take another A body donor (lets say it doesn't even have a vin tag....I bought it as parts from a junk yard), cut it all to hell and weld it into other parts of my rusty POS a-body that I am restoring.....OR, if I take a much larger portion of the donor body and do less cuts, and less welds? Again....NO DIFFERENCE!!!! It is ONLY A-BODY METAL!!!!!!

How can you say the end result is different? The replacable parts (bolt on or weld on), including ALL sheetmatal doesn't make an A-body model specific!!!!! The options do (which are coded off of the VIN)!!!!!! Right? (again, how can you disagree with that)

And, if you read through any of my postings, I never suggested not documenting any work or misrepresnting the end product in any form, regardless of how it was done. I didn't even suggest VIN Swapping....a rebody doesn't necessarily mean drilling rivets and swapping tags.

I don't even see the "stupid arguement" that you imply that I am making....people have different ways of restoring their cars. You seem to feel that doing it right is installing a bunch of aftermarket new panels on a rusty body...good for you....you have saved one from the crusher, and I'll bet it looks pretty darn nice! My point is that a rebody is doing the exact same thing as you, only quicker, cleaner, better, and of a higher quality...to save one from the crusher, just the same.

[lil64gto]

I tend to agree with what md1twal3 is saying. The most important thing to me is that the engine and drive line are original GTO equipment.

There is another spin to take on this. Let's say that you have a good GTO body, but the engine has been long since replaced with a non standard one or the automatic transmission has been replaced with a 4 speed or visa a verse. What makes this any more or less a GTO than a body swap?

The VIN tag says that it is a GTO, but the drive line is from something else. Is it still a GTO? If you have the original drive train and engine that can go back in, the answer is yes. If you don't what do you have?

This discussion can go on forever and no one will have a clear cut response. If it makes you happy then do what you want with it, it is yours. But don't take advantage of someone with no knowledge of whether it is a correct original GTO and sell it as such.

[SWEETJUDGE]

yeah OJ didnt do it & my kids play with MICHEAL JACKSON

as far as the law & the people who make them up have open pockets & the MORE they are filled the more they turn away

dont bring the LAW into this im NOT a big fan at this point

[SWEETJUDGE]

if it was a 69 id keep it theres just something about that year i love

i like 70 aswell but my intention is to restore & sell

[rzrektd]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by md1twal3:
You probably ought to step back on the car knowledge gig...I don't have to disassemble a rusty POS to know how it goes together. I have a degree for auto technology, 10 years of franchise dealership time and numerous other rustorations under my belt over the past 25 years that I have been associated with cars.....I am sure I am not alone, either. yes...RUSTorations. I have replaced all panels with aftermarket, I have clipped cars (66 Caddy), and I have patched and mudded. They look nice when done, but there is a EASIER and CHEAPER way to do it RIGHT.....REBODY.

You used several structural aftermarket panels right?....they are not unique to a GTO are they? Nope...they will fit Chevelle, Lemans, Tempest, Olds Cutlass, right? How is that any better or "the right way" to restore a GTO over taking a GM stamped part, that is already welded in?

So you use parts that are not original to your GTO or GM, plus you have non-original welds and seams....How is that "the right way to restore" a car, as opposed to using a GM made (and assembled)body?

It isn't just about the "easy way" out. It is about quality and cost too. You act like there is DNA in the metal or something that ties the body to the vin... They are just mass produced panels, that have a unique number, affixed with mass produced rivets (and easily available too).

I have seen what many of you call "clones" (a.k.a. body swaps) done by reporatble restoration shops, and I don't care what any of the "experts" say....you cannot tell....hidden vins and all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When did I impune your integrety on automotive knowledge? Did I say you did not have any knowledge on automotive restoration? Did I state the right or wrong way to replace a body panel? Did I state the right or wrong way to weld the panel in? No. We are discussing if it is right or wrong to swap vin tags and I was simply pointing out benifits to my point of view. I am sorry that you think it is correct to swap vin plates.

Before you start putting words in my mouth I think that you should take time to read the topic at respond with an educated answer. You may have plenty of automotive knowledge, but could use some reading and comprehensive eduction.

[SWEETJUDGE]

i take my toilet paper & i have to split it in 2 to get the most out of it.

yes i have 3 69 GTOs, a 65 mustang, & im still looking for more.
im 34 years old & busted my ass to be where i am today

IN DEBT like the rest of us

but i enjoy my cars as a hobby, & sometimes a business

[SWEETJUDGE]

if youve been through the thread youll see my pro street car.
Now the ONLY GTO original part on that car is THE ROOF & rocker panels.
Ive been pulled over by the police for flying
temp was HOT & i was trying to get home quick.
the vin was taken from the firewall & placed on this car, is it a true GTO? NO but it looks like one.
the police loved the car, they busted my balls for NOT having a front license plate. but they let me go.

i guess if the end result looks like crap youll get crap for it if its done nice no-one will even notice.

i guess i cant sell this car to any of you guys

[cat tracker]

All it will take to put an end to VIN TAMPERING is for someone to go to jail and write a book when they get out. They could call it "SWEET THING AND BIG BUBBA'S GUIDE TO PONTIAC RESTORATION". - Dwight Sr.