[CraigGT37]

If you are measuring from zerk fitting to frame and both sides are the same, it sounds like the frame and suspension mounting points are ok. Have you had a front end alignment done yet? Is the spindle damaged?

[Tempest]

Having the same measurement to the ball joint grease (zerk) fitting is good. Remember, the lower control arms are not adjustable when doing an alignment, however, the shims on the upper control arms are. So, that means the spindle will 'pivot' on the lower ball joint, and you need it to 'pivot' forward.

Try to see how much you can move/tilt that front hub (center of the spindle) forward with shims.
I believe the front mounting stud should have all the shims to move the spindle center forward. I just don't know how much it will move???

Hope this makes sense.

[1966geeto]

The spindles are both new I can take up some of it with shims but not enough when I put my tire on the space from the frt of the tire to the lower fender is 11/2 inches wider on the pass side than the rt side I measured the wheel opening on both sides they are the same the lower dog ears are 13 inches on both sides so with that the space from the rear of the tire on the pass side is to narrow causing the tire to rub.The wheel base on the pass side is 114 the dr side is 115.

[Tempest]

Can you measure from a spot on the frame to the Upper Ball Joint zerk fitting?

It sounds like that pass side spindle is located too far back, and there 'should' be a simple explanation as it only has 4 mounting points (upper and lower control arms) and the lowers are not adjustable. (and the lowers measure the same on both sides) so that leaves us with the uppers.

Just by chance, the pass side spindle is not a 2 inch drop or something custom is it?

Are all the parts stock/original?


I know you must be frustrated, but try to step back and carefully look at the parts, and the mounting points of that upper control arm, the problem is there, you just need to see it.

sorry, wish I could help more.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by Tempest

Can you measure from a spot on the frame to the Upper Ball Joint zerk fitting?

It sounds like that pass side spindle is located too far back, and there 'should' be a simple explanation as it only has 4 mounting points (upper and lower control arms) and the lowers are not adjustable. (and the lowers measure the same on both sides) so that leaves us with the uppers.

Just by chance, the pass side spindle is not a 2 inch drop or something custom is it?

Are all the parts stock/original?


I know you must be frustrated, but try to step back and carefully look at the parts, and the mounting points of that upper control arm, the problem is there, you just need to see it.

sorry, wish I could help more.

I totally agree with you just not seeing it both spindles are new not stock came with ssbc disck brake setup I remeasured yesterday today going to try to get a measurement from the top thanks for all the help can't give up now just frustrated.

[rohrt]

You said you have the fenders off correct?

If so then taking measurements should be pretty easy. Just some more random thoughts here for whatever they are worth.

I would not think you could stack enough shims on a upper A-arm to account for the big gap you showed in the pics.

I would take a measurement from the lower ball joint grease zerk to the firewall on both sides.

Then again to the front frame horns.

Maybe do the same with the Upper A arms.

Also a measure from a center location on the cross member.

Most important would be a cross measurement again from the lower A-arm zerk to a spot on the frame on the opposite side.

Stand above each wheel side and just site down the spindle. Does one have more Rake?

The first thing I thought of when you showed the pics with your hand in the gaps was what you called Dimond'd the frame but that just doesn't seem to add up with the rest of the info.

Seen some the pros on the pro touring site use strings and plum bobs ran through drilled out grease zerks to get things perfect.

Seems you need to separate if the issue is just with the frame or how the body sits on the frame.

I sure hope you get it figured out.

[1966geeto]

After getting really frustrated and just not making any headway I spent most of the day on the phone trying to find a frame shop that would look at the car in a city this size I would have thought it would not be to hard man was I wrong never knew there were that many rude people out there anyway I guess most of them are set up for unibody pulls now. I found 2 shops that can do the work one said would be maybe 2 months the other who seemed to know exactly whet the problem was says 2 weeks if I bring it in and leave it. I researched the shop and it has a ding in rip-off reports so leary about going there the other option I just cant wait so today going to look outside of Tampa .The one guy said they usually will have an issue with the dogleg and the make the pull with the lower control arm he also said it will destroy the arm so guess I better put an old one back on. Will update thread after I make some progress just wanted to thank you guys for the input hard doing this by myself with a broken down body.

[Tempest]

Glad you found someone (I think) time will tell if he knows what he is doing.

Were you able to take some measurements to the Upper ball joint zerk?

You say the the lowers are perfect, I am curious to your findings on the uppers.

Keep us posted, and post pics of the problem/solution.

Good Luck

[will slow gto]

I'm about to have my frame straightened so this piqued my interest. Sorry to hear your having panel alignment/potential frame issues. Don't give up!!! Do you have anyone nearby who could put a 2nd set of eyes on it? I saw your shirt in one of the photos - USF. I don't know George Nenadovich from Adam but I've been to his website many times for inspiration:
http://www.buickperformanceclub.com/70Stg.htm
Looks like he's in the Tampa area and has completed many body-offs, albeit on Buicks but these are very similar cars nonetheless. I've seen his name on Buick forums with everyone's saying how helpful he is. Couldn't hurt to try and make contact even if you aren't a member of the Buick club. (I've often wondered why you don't see more Buick-Olds-Pontiac events...) Might be better to get the opinion of someone who works on these cars on a regular basis vs. a body shop that tweaks civics and camrys all day long. Best of luck to you.

[sts]

I stay out of these because I don’t have enough information to start making calls. I scanned over your thread: has the fender been repaired/patched? I ask because this is the typical end result if the repaired part wasn’t mocked, or verified with an accurate gauge or template, when the repaired area was first tacked.

If the car has wheelwell moldings, and it had a molding on the fender, you could hold it in place and compare it to the shape of the fender because it will instantly condemn or rule-out the wheel opening on the fender. Also, it only takes 30 seconds, so it isn’t as if you’re wasting a bunch of time.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by sts

I stay out of these because I don’t have enough information to start making calls. I scanned over your thread: has the fender been repaired/patched? I ask because this is the typical end result if the repaired part wasn’t mocked, or verified with an accurate gauge or template, when the repaired area was first tacked.

If the car has wheelwell moldings, and it had a molding on the fender, you could hold it in place and compare it to the shape of the fender because it will instantly condemn or rule-out the wheel opening on the fender. Also, it only takes 30 seconds, so it isn’t as if you’re wasting a bunch of time.

It was repaired but the actual wheel base measurement is off should be 115" left side is 1131/2 the bottob of the fender dog leg is 13" on bolth sides and the wheel opening is the same on both sides thanks for the chime in anything at this point is worth a shot.

[giddygoat]

I would take a good look at anything that was changed, you mentioned the spindles. Also I remember something about A arms that they are not all the same from Chevy,Olds,Buick for the A body. If you have a level floor (most are not but you can check with a laser, just shoot and measure) or four post lift with ramps that are level you can take some measurements on the frame, Lift the car and block the side frame rails front and rear on each side so they are parallel to the floor or ramp. Take measurements at front horns and other spots on the front frame rail to see if there is a difference side to side. Look for signs of frame damage or repair where the frame comes up by the firewall. It is possible the frame could have been pushed back and bowed in this area. 1.5 inch is a lot and you should be able to see. These frames are pretty flexable with the clip off and I would not worry about 1/4 of an inch difference here or there. You should be able to determine if it is the frame. Its always nice to have another identical car to compare measurements to. Another trick I use on builders is to have all the tires on the floor and take a string and go around all the tires at the axle level pulling it tight to check for dog tracking. Tires and rims must be the same offset with the same wheelbase for this to work and the car should be rolled into place as lowering supensions off the jack will load them. This can be used for setting alignment close enough to drive it in to a shop for a proper alignment. Again I would check the spindle, ball joints, bushings and A arms first. In my opinion if the frame was bent this bad there would be serious problems getting the front clip to line up with the doors.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by giddygoat

I would take a good look at anything that was changed, you mentioned the spindles. Also I remember something about A arms that they are not all the same from Chevy,Olds,Buick for the A body. If you have a level floor (most are not but you can check with a laser, just shoot and measure) or four post lift with ramps that are level you can take some measurements on the frame, Lift the car and block the side frame rails front and rear on each side so they are parallel to the floor or ramp. Take measurements at front horns and other spots on the front frame rail to see if there is a difference side to side. Look for signs of frame damage or repair where the frame comes up by the firewall. It is possible the frame could have been pushed back and bowed in this area. 1.5 inch is a lot and you should be able to see. These frames are pretty flexable with the clip off and I would not worry about 1/4 of an inch difference here or there. You should be able to determine if it is the frame. Its always nice to have another identical car to compare measurements to. Another trick I use on builders is to have all the tires on the floor and take a string and go around all the tires at the axle level pulling it tight to check for dog tracking. Tires and rims must be the same offset with the same wheelbase for this to work and the car should be rolled into place as lowering supensions off the jack will load them. This can be used for setting alignment close enough to drive it in to a shop for a proper alignment. Again I would check the spindle, ball joints, bushings and A arms first. In my opinion if the frame was bent this bad there would be serious problems getting the front clip to line up with the doors.

Lots of good ideas going to get back at it tomorrow took the weekend off needed a break.

[1966geeto]

So back from the frame shop the guy is 66 years old and been doing frame work for most of the time he has a very small one man shop with tools I have not seen in 30 years was very good to see old school techniques used .He checked everything and came up with a few problems nothing to bad as to warrant a new frame .

The frame is not diamond shaped.
It is not bent or pushed back that is why everything was measuring out there is only a 1/4 inch difference in left and rt sides which is what I kept coming up with.
The frame however is sagging at the cradle which according to him is a very common issues with these older frames as soon as he started pointing out some reference point issues I could tell the difference .
The oil pan to close to the cradle the center link to close to the oil pan little things that added up to one big thing.
The frame needs to be what he calls impresssoned this is a process ib which they tie down the lt and rt sides of the cradle and push the center of the cradle back into place from below the frame in the center of the motor. S o for now just waiting for him to get the time to do it hopefully in a couple of weeks .The shop has been at the same location for over 40 years and he is well respected in the auto community here everyone I spoke with said he's the guy only time will tell in the meantime on with the show going to start working on finishing the interior as well as detailing the eng compartment wish me luck oh yeah and robbing a bank lol price not to bad starting at 250.00 then we'll see.

[rohrt]

That is great news.

Not really understanding how a sagging frame = the fender gap you saw but it sounds like your in good hands.

What are we all going to do when people like him disappeared.

[Tempest]

I'm not sure I understand how that would cause a difference in wheelbase ?, but you sound confident in his findings, so that is good news.

please keep us posted as the work begins.

[400 4spd.]

FWIW, my 2 cents. This is just based on my experience from working in body shops since the 70's.
Based on what I've read here (glossing over it), here are some things I would consider.
Forgive me if I'm pointing out something you've covered.
First off, regarding wheelbase, when measuring at the spindle/hub you have to be certain both wheels are toed exactly straight ahead. Any deviation from dead on will make it appear as one wheel is ahead of the other.
Secondly, it's better to compare to rocker distance, not fender gap. Rockers don't move.
Third, what your last man pointed out about the cross member/cradle closing up is true. It was a common problem 40 years ago. We called it a "closed up" cross member. We had to put many GM cars on the frame machine and put pressure across the upper control arm mounting area of the frame (both sides) while jacking the center of the cross member up. This would solve CAMBER problems, not so much CASTER issues. Not saying yours doesn't suffer both, but I've included a picture of where I would be looking if I had a severe caster problem.
It's the rear mount of the lower control arm. If those are too close together it pulls the wheel back, shortening the wheel base. Below is a picture of a 67 mount.
A year ago we had a 70 Lemans in here with the same problem, but was drastic.
Anyway, good luck with it and if you need more measurements or pictures let me know. We have some GTO's in the shop with and without engines.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by rohrt

That is great news.

Not really understanding how a sagging frame = the fender gap you saw but it sounds like your in good hands.

What are we all going to do when people like him disappeared.

The way he explained it when you move the frame it changes everything if the pull is made centerline under the eng the frt horns will roll out and the fender will come into place then the front end alignment will come into play I have to trust the guy just looking at some of hi old school stuff brought back lots of memories when I used to do frt end alignment's he actually had a tool that you could only get if you went to GM frame school.

Praying it will all be over soon.

[giddygoat]

Glad to see you found someone that can correct this for you. Sounds like he has a handle on it, getting hard to find frame guys anymore. We were in Florida this winter for a week, was a long winter in Minnesota, wish we could have stayed longer.

[1966geeto]

Originally Posted by giddygoat

Glad to see you found someone that can correct this for you. Sounds like he has a handle on it, getting hard to find frame guys anymore. We were in Florida this winter for a week, was a long winter in Minnesota, wish we could have stayed longer.

I don't know anymore what he's is saying makes no sense to me but he's the frame guy I would think that the way he is talking about making the pull all it would do is make the eng sit higher in the car and that would throw the camber out not move the wheel forward I guess we'll see .I measured the distance between the horns on my frame and the parts car I have and it is only 1/2 inch difference makes me crazy.