[importsmasher]

My 16 year old son and I just put a Muncie (not Saginaw) 3 speed into his 65 Tempest. We pulled it, along with a 73 Pontiac 350, out of a 64 Skylark, so obviously not the original installation.
Out of curiosity (and boredom lol), I decided to try to figure out what it originally came out of. The partial VIN is 23A259665 (see picture). So....clearly Pontiac, and 1973. Google tells me "A" is Lakewood, GA. They didn't make Firebirds or Venturas there, so that eliminates F body and X body. I don't think you could get a 350 or a 3 speed in a 73 full size car, so it leaves A or G body. No manual trans G bodies after 71, so it has to be A body. Grand Ams didn't come with a 350, so that only leaves a 73 LeMans that this could have come in.

Am I right? Did I miss anything or have any incorrect information?

Really, none of this matters, it's just my curiosity. Plus, I didn't realize Pontiac used the Muncie 3 speed. I thought they only used the Saginaw.

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
Importsmasher

[OG68]

The Muncie replaced the Dearborn HD three speed in 1970 in the A and F bodies, The B body carried the Dearborn one more year until 71.
The Saginaw was for light duty applications.

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by OG68

The Muncie replaced the Dearborn HD three speed in 1970 in the A and F bodies, The B body carried the Dearborn one more year until 71.
The Saginaw was for light duty applications.

Good information, thanks! But wouldn't a 350 2 barrel LeMans qualify as light duty?

[OG68]

You would think so. OPH probably knows the details about 350s.

[thepontiacman]

I got one out of a 73 Lemans with 350 2bbl., manual disc brakes, no air cond., manual steering with shock assist, had smog pump set up.

Muncie 3 speed trans., May still have the transmission.

[73SportCoupe]

My 73 Sport Coupe is an original 350 2 barrel, dual exhaust, HD Muncie 3 speed with 3:23 gears. Not very common but man fun to drive

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by 73SportCoupe

My 73 Sport Coupe is an original 350 2 barrel, dual exhaust, HD Muncie 3 speed with 3:23 gears. Not very common but man fun to drive

My son's car (that we put the Muncie 3 speed in) has its original 326 2 barrel that we converted to a 4 barrel (but it still has the original 2 barrwl cam and low compression), with a 3 23 open rear. It's not fast by any means, but it's a lot more fun to drive than the automatic was! My son loves it.

Importsmasher

[unruhjonny]

My guess is that this is from a Lemans;
I believe that for 1972-1974, outside of trucks, these were mostly found in the A-bodies - but I am unclear on which (if any) Regals or Cutlasses could receive these.

Keep in mind that the 1973 Lemans was the basis for that year's GTO.

I have 1972 and 1973 "Accessorizers";
Both of these show that the 6 cylinder and 350 came standard with the Saginaw, while the 'M13' was available with the 350 & 400 in everything except the station wagon.
It also says that the 'M13' was included with the GTO & GT options.

Can I ask if this is an "A" or "B" gear set?

I understand that normally the floor shifted Muncie three speeds were "B" gear sets, but I have read that some "A" gear set transmissions may have been assembled with a tail housing for a floor shifter... but info on these transmissions is rather spotty.

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

My guess is that this is from a Lemans;
I believe that for 1972-1974, outside of trucks, these were mostly found in the A-bodies - but I am unclear on which (if any) Regals or Cutlasses could receive these.

Keep in mind that the 1973 Lemans was the basis for that year's GTO.

I have 1972 and 1973 "Accessorizers";
Both of these show that the 6 cylinder and 350 came standard with the Saginaw, while the 'M13' was available with the 350 & 400 in everything except the station wagon.
It also says that the 'M13' was included with the GTO & GT options.

Can I ask if this is an "A" or "B" gear set?

I understand that normally the floor shifted Muncie three speeds were "B" gear sets, but I have read that some "A" gear set transmissions may have been assembled with a tail housing for a floor shifter... but info on these transmissions is rather spotty.

I am not sure which gearset this one has. I didn't check before we installed it in the car. Is there a way to tell without pulling anything? It is floor shifted; it came with the factory ITM shifter.

Importsmasher

[unruhjonny]

yes, it's an assembly ID code;
but it's not as clear and easy to find as the partial vin code you posted;

this is a six alpha-numeric code, stamped on a section of the flat machined surface made for the side cover;

its on the bottom, rear - if you're looking at the side cover, it should be just below the bottom right corner bolt for the side cover.

An example is: M9T29A

The first character I believe* determines if it was a truck or car install;
M = Truck-Muncie three speed
H = Car-Muncie three speed
The second character is the final digit in the model year.
The third character is the month (in this case T = December).
The fourth and fifth are the date of the month.
The last is the gear set code.

* = I have written down every Muncie three speed assembly code I have come across, and so far, all that start with an 'H' also end with a 'B' (and all 'M' also end with an 'A').
But I have read that the muncie three speed may have been used on a full sized car with the 'A' gear set... I am not sure if that was a trust-worthy source though.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

But I have read that the muncie three speed may have been used on a full sized car with the 'A' gear set... I am not sure if that was a trust-worthy source though.

They dropped manual transmissions in big cars in early 1971, so if the OP's transmission has a 1973 date code it's not one of those.

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

yes, it's an assembly ID code;
but it's not as clear and easy to find as the partial vin code you posted;

this is a six alpha-numeric code, stamped on a section of the flat machined surface made for the side cover;

its on the bottom, rear - if you're looking at the side cover, it should be just below the bottom right corner bolt for the side cover.

An example is: M9T29A

The first character I believe* determines if it was a truck or car install;
M = Truck-Muncie three speed
H = Car-Muncie three speed
The second character is the final digit in the model year.
The third character is the month (in this case T = December).
The fourth and fifth are the date of the month.
The last is the gear set code.

* = I have written down every Muncie three speed assembly code I have come across, and so far, all that start with an 'H' also end with a 'B' (and all 'M' also end with an 'A').
But I have read that the muncie three speed may have been used on a full sized car with the 'A' gear set... I am not sure if that was a trust-worthy source though.

We had to pull the transmission out the other day, due to the front bearing retainer breaking; I will look for the code when we put it back in.

On that note, does anyone have or know where to get a front bearing retainer? Apparently it's only for the Muncie 3 speed....

Thanks,
Importsmasher

[unruhjonny]

How in the world did you break the front bearing retainer?

You could call up THESE guys, they have a shelf full of SM330 parts - they may have a car front bearing retainer for you.

I bought one several years ago for what was then my spare 'A' gear set transmission, so i could part with it...

If you are able to turn down a truck one, I'd prefer to part with that one.

Car front bearing retainer installed:


Truck front bearing retainer installed:


I found the casted part numbers too hard to make out - which is why I never gave them in my own "wanted" thread HERE.

Here is the machined face of the truck bearing retainer:

You can see that there IS enough meat to machine it down...

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

How in the world did you break the front bearing retainer?

You could call up THESE guys, they have a shelf full of SM330 parts - they may have a car front bearing retainer for you.

I bought one several years ago for what was then my spare 'A' gear set transmission, so i could part with it...

If you are able to turn down a truck one, I'd prefer to part with that one.

Car front bearing retainer installed:


Truck front bearing retainer installed:


I found the casted part numbers too hard to make out - which is why I never gave them in my own "wanted" thread HERE.

Here is the machined face of the truck bearing retainer:

You can see that there IS enough meat to machine it down...

I'm not really sure how it broke. New pilot bushing and throwout bearing, and the fork and its pivot ball are in good shape. Only thing I can think of is maybe it got cracked while it was kicking around my shop for a year before we installed it

I don't have any way to turn down a truck one; do you have any car ones for sale? If so, how much shipped to 38375?

Thanks,
Importsmasher

[unruhjonny]

Did you try calling the company in Washington state that I linked in the quoted post?

I am in Canada, and odds are (unless you are willing to wait a couple months till I am able to mail while state-side) shipping will kill it...

[unruhjonny]

A-HA!!!

I dug further (again to try to help you) to find that this shop (Garage Motorsports) has one listed on eBay right now!!

LINK

Snap it up - eBay shipping is typically much cheaper than a shipping for a person to person transaction.

Not to mention, that bearing retainer (to me) is CHEAP!

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

A-HA!!!

I dug further (again to try to help you) to find that this shop (Garage Motorsports) has one listed on eBay right now!!

LINK

Snap it up - eBay shipping is typically much cheaper than a shipping for a person to person transaction.

Not to mention, that bearing retainer (to me) is CHEAP!

Awesome, thank you! I will get that on its way here! Thanks again for the information and assistance! My son is dying to drive his car again!

Importsmasher

[unruhjonny]

make sure there's a pilot busing in the crank;
I seem to recall reading that breakages like this are often attributed to a missing or worn pilot bushing.

For future reference, look those guys up - they seem to be the go-to guys for parts for these transmissions (but they do not!?! list any of it on their web page).

[importsmasher]

Originally Posted by unruhjonny

make sure there's a pilot busing in the crank;
I seem to recall reading that breakages like this are often attributed to a missing or worn pilot bushing.

For future reference, look those guys up - they seem to be the go-to guys for parts for these transmissions (but they do not!?! list any of it on their web page).

Yeah we just changed his car from an automatic to a stick last month, and put in a new pilot bushing at that time.

Importsmasher

[importsmasher]

Got the new bearing retainer today! Thanks for the help, unruhjonny!