[Pontirag]

Stop clowning around, its embarassing.

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by surfnuke9

apparently Walter, real world experience and an understanding of a multi-variable heat transfer system dont mean anything. You must have been mistaken and simply lucked into reducing your temps by installing a restrictor.....must have been something else that happened coincidentally with your installation of the restrictor that casued the temp drop.....because we have been told that this is not possible.....

As you can see, I'm not the only "clown" being sarcastic here. You shouldn't be embarrassed. I'm not the "clown" with warnings

I was only partially "clowning". The point is, I have a similar setup and results that are opposite. So, one person posting results consistent with your side doesn't prove the opposition wrong. I can weave in sarcasm as well as the next guy. Here I am debating with you after I swore I wouldn't. I'll never learn.

[Tom Vaught]

Quote:

"As engineer is your career, "How fast is too fast?". Is it the 18-23 gph you stated? What's ideal. If so, why would a company like Meziere sell a 40 gph pump. Especially when it is independent of crankshaft rpm. Then if you try to restrict the flow, according to Pontirag, you will cause the vanes to stall. I'm sure there is a limit. We are making a lot of assumptions in this argument (er. uh. discussion"

First off I am glad that Engineer does not work for the Ford Motor Company, (I hope) in the cooling system department.

Quote from Meziere catalog for a Pontiac Electric Pump:

"Meziere Product Part Search"

"Cooling Systems Pumps Pontiac Traditional 35 GPM Electric"

That 35 GPM means 35 GALLONS PER MINUTE, NOT PER HOUR.

There is one h*ll of a difference between 35 gal per minute and 35 gal per hr.

From Stewarts water pump web site:

Quote"

"This pump uses less than two (2) Horsepower at 50 GPM. The Chevy Pro Series offers -16 AN side outlets while still using stock mounting holes, allowing all or some of the water to the sides of the block and heads. The ¾” shaft and ½” billet hub allow the use of a mechanical fan."

I asked Stewart one time about what he thought of the flow capability of the STOCK Traditional pontiac pump. He said that the factory pump
with the cast impeller was a fine pump as it had a large diameter, excellent flow, and good bearings. No need to use an aftermarket one
unless you were going to electric.

Tom V.

ps Stewart told me the pontiac pump was in the 60 gal/min range so to answer your question:

"Does anyone know what a stock, belt-driven water pump flows in GPH ?"

3600 gallons per hour.

[66bonne]

Tom - thank you for an answer I can understand. Stock belt-driven pump flows about 3600 gph and the heavy duty Meziere flows 2400 gph.
Thanks, Jim

[dmac]

I'd bet the 3600 gph will vary with engine rpm, with more at higher rpms, when air flow through the radiator is greater, and less at idle. The 2400 gph constant may be better since it is at idling and low rpms that overheating usually occurs.

[Goat-Racer]

Jim, I have been following along with this post since it started and then quickly turned away from your problem into a battle of theory. Your problem never really got solved did it?

I also run a Meziere HD pump on my GTO. It's been on since 2000, and has seen about 10K miles worth of service with one complimentary reseal by the factory. The car has been across the desert to Las Vegas and back, as well as two Drag Week trips and many other long distance outings.
I use a 1" restrictor (gutted thermostat body) and a Howe aluminum radiator with two factory GM electric fans and no extra shrouding. The temps will always settle down at highway speed vs. in town because of the extra air flow to the radiator at that speed.
I can even see a difference in coolant temps depending on wether I am heading with or into any wind that there might be. I very seldom ever use the fans on the highway unless the ambient temps are in the 90+ range.

My questions to you are:

What else did you change when you installed the Meziere pump?

What electric fan(s) are you using and are they shrouded in any way?

Is your charging system keeping up with all of this extra current draw when everything is on?

Meziere had told me origionally that the HD pump would circulate coolant at the equivelant of about 2500 enging RPM with a belt driven pump. There is still some variables there, but the basic coparison seems pretty sound to me.
If your electric fan has a build in shroud, could it be restricting free airflow at highway speed? My fans have no extra shrouding but still do a great job at low speed. I also have a 100 amp alternator driven fast enough to maintain 14v at idle with everything on.

I am assuming that the car used to run cool at highway speed before the electric pump, eliminating the chance of a timing or jetting issue creating the heat.

Brian

[66bonne]

Brian - thank you for your post and interest.
When I put on the Meziere pump we, of coarse, went to an electric fan. I don't remember the brand/model off hand but it is shrouded and I believe the cfm was about 3000, I ordered the biggest I could find. These were the only changes we made at that time, I have not done anything to the engine regarding timing, jetting, etc. The fan does draw some juice and I've noticed at idle with the lights on the volt meter will drop to about 12v. When the car is moving the volts go right back to 14. I believe that the alternator is a 100amp unit. I have the factory four core radiator that was re-cored about 3 years ago. I have NEVER had an overheating issue with the car.
What I noticed after changing to the electric pump/fan is that when the car was on the interstate that it ran about 20degrees hotter than it did with the stock belt-driven pump. At first I had a 185 thermostat and temp on highway would peak at 200-205. I put in a 160 thermostat and now it peaks at about 185. It does not matter whether it is hot or cold outside [not that it gets cold here in Florida !!] Around town the engine temp tops out at about 170. I have not tried turning off the fans when on the interstate.
By the way, that is one motor-vating Goat you have - very impressive times.
Thanks, Jim

[JSchmitz]

Goat-Racer, Is this the car in your signature? Thanks for getting back to the topic. If so, that 200-4r is a big advantage on the highway. Assuming 66bonne doesn't have overdrive. What GM fans are you running? What size radiator, etc.? I have a '64 GTO. I'm running a Griffin, 26" x 19", 1-1/4" tube radiator. It's the biggest one I could fit without cutting the core support. I had to "dimple the support in a couple places. I have a homemade AL shroud and severe duty clutch fan.


66bonne, what size/type is your radiator? I didn't see it posted. What trans/cooler, stall, gears, etc. I think a full description of your setup might help.

[JSchmitz]

66bonne,

As I have said before, I love your car! Awesome performance!

[66bonne]

JSchmitz - thanks for chiming in. I have a stock four core GM radiator that was re-cored about three years ago. I do have a large tranny cooler in front of the radiator. There is at least 6 inches between radiator and tranny cooler. 2500 stall convertor with 3:42 gears out back.
As I pointed out the only thing that has changed on my Catalina is that I added the electric pump and fan. While the Catalina does not over heat [even when it had the belt-driven pump] it just puzzles me that it runs about 20 degrees higher on the interstate than it did with the belt-driven pump. I can only surmise that at highway speeds the belt-driven pump flowed more than the electric pump/fan set-up, therefore I am running hotter now. Around town, at idle, stop-and-go traffic and slower speeds the electric pump/fan keep the engine temp at about 170.
Thanks again, Jim

[Goat-Racer]

Jim, at some point your voltage at idle will need to be addressed, but low speed cooling is obviously not your problem at the moment (and thanks for the compliment on the GTO!).

The first thought that I had was that your shrouded fan setup may be reducing the amount of free air that can flow past the radiator when you are up at highway speed and load. The easiest test would be to remove the fan all together so that the radiator is totally open and hit the highway. Hopefully you have an area close enough to home to try this without getting too hot on the way back through town.
Like I posted earlier, I rerely use the fans on the freeway because of the increased wind speed hitting the front of the car.

The other test would be to gut a thermostat and try the 1" restrictor instead of the thermostat. The optimum size for your setup may be different, but I think it's a good place to start.
Let's see what happens with these tests and go from there.

The fans I use are factory '97-'02 Camaro/Firebird peices and measure just over 12" each. The car in my sig line is in fact the car I am talking about, and even though I have the 200-4R trans, it still turns 2800-3000 down the feeway because of the 4.10 gears and 8" non lockup converter. It's still really happy at 75-80 mph down the interstate! I also use a pretty good size trans cooler out front.
The radiator is one of the universal Howe units that has a 22.5" x 18" core. It just barely fits in the stock core support. There are only two rows of tubes, but they are each 1" wide.

Your problem is probably something simple. we'll find it.

Here is a few pics of my setup.

[66bonne]

Brian - that is a NICE looking motor and it makes some kick butt times !! Quick question: Where do you run your PCV system ? To the carb ? To an intake runner ?
I tried running mine to the carb but it worked too good !! and sucked enough oil to foul the plugs. I'm trying running it to the air cleaner but that doesn't seem to pull enough and I'm blowing a little oil out the bottom of the valve covers [and maybe even out the rear main seal].
I like the idea of the gutted thermostat and will try that first. Probably as soon as early next week.
Big thanks for getting this post back on track, Jim, thanks for the help

[Goat-Racer]

Jim, I used to run the PCV valve hose to a nipple on one of my carb spacers and never had any oil going through the circut. When I changed over to the new top end, I actually got rid of it all together. It was really a trackside change that never went away, but there has been ne reason to put it back on.

Maybee you can add some baffeling under your PCV valve? You want to keep the hose to the plenum and not to any one runner by itself.

Brian

[JSchmitz]

66bonne,

My guess is not enough air flow. When I was running an electric it did the same thing. It cooled good at low speed, but not the highway. It was a Black Magic 2800 cfm w/shroud. I think it inhibited free air flow at speed. Whereas Goat-Racer's fans would let it flow through better. I want to get back to an electric. I'm going to try a higher cfm setup. I hate the clutch fan roar on the highway. It works fantastic though.

I was looking at this fan: http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Goat-Racer,

Nice setup. I may look into some of those fans. I don't know if those would fit with a engine driven water pump. How thick are they? Very nice car. Interesting combo. Obviously well thought out. Your rpm's are about the same as my 3.23:1 gears. Below are pics of my current setup. I have the heavy duty fan clutch (vs. severe duty) on there right now.

I just had to take my GTO to the Auto parts store IN THE SNOW! What a nightmare! I should have thrown some weight in the trunk. I thought I wasn't going to make it home. I've had it in the snow, with weight in the trunk, before with no problem.

[Goat-Racer]

Thanks for the compliment.

If you are going to buy fans, look at these. This is the good stuff.
http://etxiow.accpaconline.com/searc...TOKEN=44099665

I like my factory fans, and I was able to buy them at a decent price (I'm a GM parts guy) but I would probably go this route if I was going to do it over again. A pair of the biggest fans (curved blade) I could install and stagger them corner to corner.

Be cautious of anything with the word "magic" in the title.

A clutch fan should'nt make any noise down the road unless you really have some heat built up. What I have found is that aftermarket fan clutches are junk. Regardless of brand, price, or model, they just don't work like a factory GM piece.
A GM clutch is going to cost you the same as one good electric fan though, so you may as well just step up and get the e-fans.

[DiamondJim]

CSR 35 gpm and 4500 cfm Lincoln Mark VIII works great for me, on the street and at the track. -Jim

[JSchmitz]

Originally Posted by Goat-Racer

Be cautious of anything with the word "magic" in the title.

Actually, the Flex-a-lite Black Magic fan is a really nice unit. http://store.summitracing.com/partde...5&autoview=sku

Just not enough for my car.

Originally Posted by Goat-Racer

A clutch fan should'nt make any noise down the road unless you really have some heat built up. What I have found is that aftermarket fan clutches are junk. Regardless of brand, price, or model, they just don't work like a factory GM piece.

I've had great luck with Hayden fan clutches. They disengage when it's cool out, etc. Pull like crazy when hot. All the severe duty fans roar at high rpm's. Unless it's pretty cool out. They are designed to turn about 70-80 percent of the shaft speed. I think the heavy duty spins about 60-70 percent.

[lust4speed]

According to a conversation I had with a Hayden tech, the larger HD units have a much greater percentage of lockup over the standard clutches when engaged. Also according to the tech the clutch fans will disengage about 4,400 RPM because the clutch is designed where the silicon fluid will pull away from the inner impeller with the increased centrifugal force effectively putting in neutral. This free wheeling feature not only saves horsepower at higher RPM, but also is a safety feature since you don't really want to spin that much mass too high - especially since most fans are over driven.

[avewhtboy]

From what you and others have said and from my experience trying to
keep my LT1 cool, I think the issue is with the fan and not the water
pump. For instance in the program for the LT1 from the factory you
can actually select a speed to cut the fans off so they are free wheeling
and not actually impeding airflow. If it was me I would add a switch to
the fan(s) if you don't have one now and just cut them off once you get to
hwy speeds and see if this helps rather than removing it completely and
running the risk of overheating. Also my fans have rubber flaps on them
will open at hwy speeds allowing more flow through the shroud.

With all that said sounds like your temps are fine and you really don't need
to do anything it was more of a curiousity?

[66bonne]

With all that said sounds like your temps are fine and you really don't need
to do anything it was more of a curiousity?

Avewhtboy - Yes, it was curiosity in that [while my temps were not excessive] I was puzzled as to why the highway temps were higher with the electric fan/pump than with the belt driven pump and clutch fan. I will try the suggestion of cutting the electric fan off when on the highway as I did wire in a switch. The fan itself may be impeding flow. With the old clutch fan set-up the fan would probably have been disengaged at highway speeds.
Thanks, jim