[Old Goat 67]

Gary, please take another shot with the two plates side by side like the angle in picture 2 & 4, to show the difference in the two plates. Also, could you get some measurements using a straight edge to show the depth of the two plates from the straight edge to the desktop.

Please?

This is just mind boggling! How in the heck can two wrongs make a right????

Charles

[Old Goat 67]

How about a shot of each plate on the pump showing this angle.






Charles

[rad400]

Is anyone going to make an alumium wp like the one from cardone or don't we need a alumium ones any more.

[67Dan]

Originally Posted by GT182

Like you say, I've said right along that the plates need to be included with the pumps. But if Ames is willing and can correct their plate that will work, then they wouldn't need to be included. Their plate as it is now only works with impellers that have been shaved down and the original correct impeller contour is lost.

I also believe the keyway will need to be cut into the SS plate too... just like the originals where. The keyway locks it in and the hump in the timing cover becomes a part of the plate.... all due to the curve of the plate and the impeller's contour. No keyway and the impeller will hit the plate. I've proven that truing to get this new pump installed using both plates. Original works, SS plate won't.... as it is from Ames it hits the impeller.

Here is the correct impeller contour and set so it's correct to install.....



Here's the original divider plate's contour....



SS Plate contour showing where the impeller is hitting the plate....



And the side view of the SS plate showing the contour and then it being flat to the center....



These are the best photos I could get for the SS plate. Maybe someone with a better camera than mine can get better shots and post them showing it's contour.

Well, talked to Paul after lunch today and he told me the SS plate from Ames was a perfect copy of the last version of the plate designed by Pontiac. Says with all the motors he builds he always bangs on the plates!

To me, the pictures of the Ames SS plate which I have, shows it has no curvature to match the impeller. It is almost flat across, while the original has a bow in the plate that matches the blades of the impellor!

Talk about a conundrum!!!! I’m trying to find an original plate for my car that is functional and can be cleaned up! I’ll powder coat or anodize it to prevent corrosion!
If anyone has an original plate for a 66 or 67 GTO. Please email me at:

dmascheck@sbcglobal.net

I desperately need to get my car on the road! This is crazy! We get Cordone on board and now we still have a problem with the plate and I’m not banging a plate!

[GT182]

Dan the SS plate issue being looked into by Ames Engineering. Hopefully they too will see a change is needed.

The SS plates might have been good enough for the shaved impellers we had trouble with, but that is no longer true. 3 of us have seen these plates are no longer 'good enough'. These new impellers that are correct need a plate that has the full curve in it... just like the original plate with the keyway. Even the plate Pontiac changed too had the full curve in it minus the keyway. There is no reason why these SS plates should be beaten on to make them work.... not any more. Besides, it's very iffy if the SS plates can even be beaten so they'll work with correct impeller Cardone is going to use. If they can it will be a long slow process... and that's from a machine shop. Two wrongs don't make a right. Pontiac didn't beat on any plates they used, so why should we have to.

[67Dan]

Originally Posted by GT182

Dan the SS plate issue being looked into by Ames Engineering. Hopefully they too will see a change is needed.

The SS plates might have been good enough for the shaved impellers we had trouble with, but that is no longer true. 3 of us have seen these plates are no longer 'good enough'. These new impellers that are correct need a plate that has the full curve in it... just like the original plate with the keyway. Even the plate Pontiac changed too had the full curve in it minus the keyway. There is no reason why these SS plates should be beaten on to make them work.... not any more. Besides, it's very iffy if the SS plates can even be beaten so they'll work with correct impeller Cardone is going to use. If they can it will be a long slow process... and that's from a machine shop. Two wrongs don't make a right. Pontiac didn't beat on any plates they used, so why should we have to.

I agree on all points and find Paul Spotts comments to me troubling after reconsidering yesterday. I know Pontiac did not beat each one of the plates at the factory to fit each GTO, plain and simple. I'm just tired of waiting for people to make the right parts and I'm sitting with a car I can not drive! CRAZY! I pray I can find an old servicable plate and I'll media blast it and then powder coat or anodize to make it rust free.

[GOAT8U2]

It's great that board members took the time to work with Cardone and that they appear to have fixed their pumps.

I'll tell you from the past experience working in the custom auto parts industry that coming back to them over and over with an issue you think is there's and isn't, is going to wear them out. I'd take some time and then more time, making sure what you're sending them is accurate info and accurate parts because the reality is, their Work time is more valuable than your Free time to get parts made.

Looks Cardone fixed their issue and the new pump is better with the stock plates. Looks like Ames isn't making the most accurate plates. I wouldn't have Cardone do a darn since it looks like they did their job correctly and I wouldn't bother them to reconfigure the new pump around someone elses part miscalculation.

Please don't say you're trying to now have Cardone make the new pump around the Ames plates, that's a door slammer if I were Cardone and everyones hard work and time could be flushed away.

[67Dan]

On the contrary, we are working to get Ames to correct their mistake, and I take my hat off to Gary Carr and Charles Broussard that are taking the lead! One down and one to go!

If they don't resolve their problem, then we are looking into manufacturing the proper plates ourself possibly!

[Blue '66]

Great job guys!So how much taller(vanes) is the new over the old?I think I have a good original plate,not sure where since I moved.

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by Blue '66

Great job guys!So how much taller(vanes) is the new over the old?I think I have a good original plate,not sure where since I moved.

Commonly available pump with original plate.



New pump, with same original plate.



Enough said?

Charles

[Engine-Ear]

"Enough said?"

It is for me...man, the difference is incredible!

[Blue '66]

That is a big difference.

[GOAT8U2]

Yep that's awesome, Cardone fixed their issue and the original plates are clearly the way to roll with it.

Please post the Pontiac Vendor that is going to sell the new Cardone Pump, we should support that business and show Cardone we appreciate their time to retool and engineer an existing part they could've said, FU, to us on.

[Old Goat 67]

The new pump # has not been issued yet. They are working on it as fast as they can, but it does take time. As soon as it has, it will be posted here. Hopefully, in the near future.

The couple of pumps they found in their inventory were flukes located by a manual search. The same situation as the one I found by accident years ago. Pumps with the higher vanes and correct curvature made it through the process without having been replaced with a lessor impeller.

There are no commitments from vendors who will carry them yet either, but we are hopeful that PY would be the first. After all, IT IS this forum that has enabled this to even be possible.

This is the best place for our passion to be made better! AND, I should add, it is free to us.

Charles

[aronhk_md]

Wondered why I hadnt heard any updates from the old thread....didnt realize there was this new one! lol I'll add my thanks to you guys for your time and energy pursuing this. Even through my disagreement with the "pump engineer" at the end of the other thread I knew banging the plate wasnt the solution and that the impeller needed to be properly positioned on the shaft. I've moved one to the proper position myself, but obviously it would be nice to just buy one that is correct.

On another note.....if you get one of the new pumps before the plate situation is addressed.........you could probably press the impeller very slightly to get the clearance you need with the SS repro plate. Unless it is severely interfering this shouldnt open up the plate to impeller distance more than a few thousandths more yet should clear it for use. We arent talking the 1/4" gaps we had before. GT182..........can you verify this? How much clearance would you need?

[Old Goat 67]

Aron,

The problem as we can see with that scenario is that beating the plate to match at the center opening does not give the proper curvature along the length of the vanes to be truly the maximum efficiency that you achieve with an old plate that matches the impeller curvature throughout the length of the vanes, thus giving the most movement of the water through the pump.

I cannot speak for the plates and 11 bolt scenario, but I can say this from my personal experience with the 8 bolt version. The water movement is to say the least, phenomenal.

Charles

[aronhk_md]

Oh I agree with you 100% Charles. I was talking about an intermediate fix... in case you have a new pump, the repro plates, and want to get the car driveable. Its still probably better than the old 1/4" gaps, but obviously not the end result we want. I dont recommend beating the plate at all.

[Old Goat 67]

Agreed.

[GT182]

Ok... here's my little update on what's happenin with my car.

The other day I finally got the new pump I'm testing installed and the car running again. Running but not driveable for the hightway.... still have to get the header panel back from the bodyshop. Had to have it repainted.

Now back to the pump. I'm using my old original rear divider plate with the keyway, and using the SS replacement front plate with it. The gap between this new impeller and the rear original plate is perfect. Test fitting everything together with the pump bolts just finger tight I heard something scraping inside. The only tweeking I had to do was bend the keyway 'ears' just a tad so they sit up to and touch the timing gear hump in the timing cover. After bending the ears and the pump bolted up tight so there's no leaks... no more noise from inside the timing cover. Also went back to the normal 'ol 180 thermostat. I started the car up and let it sit and idle for a good 45 minutes. Temperature slowly went up to 180 and stayed there.... No overheating at all. This pump moves coolant like you won't believe.

This 'new' pump is just like the one Charles has and it will be the new pump from Cardone, even with a new part number. Hang tight, once they get set up and start putting them out on the market, they'll let us know so we can then let you know.

[GT182]

Originally Posted by Blue '66

Great job guys!So how much taller(vanes) is the new over the old?I think I have a good original plate,not sure where since I moved.

It's at least 3/4". But... it's the correct curvature too to match the original plate. The ones we're all having problems with were 'shaved' so the height is nowhere the same as these "new" ones.

Still haven't heard on a part number yet from Cardone. As soon as we do it will be posted here, and I'm sure PY and Ames will both carry them. You should also be able to get them thru the parts stoes like NAPA that do carry Cardone waterpumps. For the guys around where I live, Christianna Auto Parts in New Castle carries Cardone. I'm sure they'd be happy to send out these pumps to anyone that needs them.... once they're out on the shelves or you're able to order them.

As for the repo SS plates, Ames Ent. is still checking things out. I called yesterday to check. But do to family issues the 'Boss' has been away taking care of that.... I was assured will get it resolved one way or the other as soon as possible.

Had the car out this morning for a 10 mile run and all is well.... Temp went to 190 when stopped at traffic lights but came down to 180 as soon as I started moving again. IMO I think the problem has been solved from Cardone's end.