[buds56]

I think you could use a 60 timing cover [not reverse flow] and block the small water holes in the block off and the late heads should work. Study the timing cover and block pics on the http://www.pontiacsafari.com/ site under engine cooling.Hope this helps Bud

[poison heart]

But it's a FORD! haha

Lots of hot rodders in the day used Pontiac/Buick/Olds mills. It's a breath of fresh air from all the SBC and SBF BS you see in old hot rods.

[1960 shark]

Originally Posted by poison heart

But it's a FORD! haha

Lots of hot rodders in the day used Pontiac/Buick/Olds mills. It's a breath of fresh air from all the SBC and SBF BS you see in old hot rods.

I agree with you on that.

I owned a 54 buick and it had a rebuilt 322 nailhead in it, even though everyone told me to put in a chevy.

[b-man]

Stay on topic guys, don't derail Rocky's 347 engine thread.

[Rocky 389]

"Ford motors are very inexpensive compared to a Pontiac."
yup....and for good reason.

[poison heart]

When I find a hot rod to build it will be either Pontiac powered or nailhead powered. Screw everything else...except early hemis

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by buds56

I think you could use a 60 timing cover [not reverse flow] and block the small water holes in the block off and the late heads should work. Study the timing cover and block pics on the http://www.pontiacsafari.com/ site under engine cooling.Hope this helps Bud

Getting back to the subject... Here's a direct link to the engine cooling page: www.pontiacsafari.com/EngineCooling/index.htm

Do not use a 60 or later timing cover on a reverse flow block (1959 and earlier). You must use a reverse flow front cover on a reverse flow block and you should use the water distributing tubes in the heads if you don't want over heating problems. I've also heard some say that they knew of a reverse flow engine that was run without the water distributing tubes but I wouldn't do it without knowing more about how the engine was used and how long it lasted. I would expect rear cylinders to run hotter than front and the problem wouldn't show up on the temp' guage.

The reverse/conventional flow blocks do not have the same water passages. Not only are the passages in the front of the block different but also the water passages in the block head-mating surfaces (deck) are different. The reverse flow blocks have water passages drilled that provide an even flow from head to block, front to back. The conventional flow block (1960 and later) water passages provide for higher water flow to the back of the block (larger water passages in back-lower than in front-upper).

1957-60 heads are almost identical. The 1960 heads do not use the water distributing tubes because they were mounted on a conventional flow block. But you can interchange 1960 heads with earlier heads, using the water distributing tubes if the heads are mounted on a reverse flow block. I'm using 1957 heads on my 1960 block without the distributing tubes. I knew one person who used a '57 head on one side of his '60 engine.

What I don't know is about using '61 and later heads on a reverse flow block. I believe the '61 and later heads will bolt onto the earlier block -- but you must insure that water circulation is going to work in the reverse flow manner. If the water elbow mounts to the front of the head and you can insert the water distributing tube in the head, then it will probably work. I would do some close comparison between heads before trying it. Of course later heads will require a later intake manifold.

[poison heart]

OK thanks for the tips

[Rocky 389]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

Getting back to the subject... Here's a direct link to the engine cooling page: www.pontiacsafari.com/EngineCooling/index.htm

Do not use a 60 or later timing cover on a reverse flow block (1959 and earlier). You must use a reverse flow front cover on a reverse flow block and you should use the water distributing tubes in the heads if you don't want over heating problems. I've also heard some say that they knew of a reverse flow engine that was run without the water distributing tubes but I wouldn't do it without knowing more about how the engine was used and how long it lasted. I would expect rear cylinders to run hotter than front and the problem wouldn't show up on the temp' guage.

The reverse/conventional flow blocks do not have the same water passages. Not only are the passages in the front of the block different but also the water passages in the block head-mating surfaces (deck) are different. The reverse flow blocks have water passages drilled that provide an even flow from head to block, front to back. The conventional flow block (1960 and later) water passages provide for higher water flow to the back of the block (larger water passages in back-lower than in front-upper).

1957-60 heads are almost identical. The 1960 heads do not use the water distributing tubes because they were mounted on a conventional flow block. But you can interchange 1960 heads with earlier heads, using the water distributing tubes if the heads are mounted on a reverse flow block. I'm using 1957 heads on my 1960 block without the distributing tubes. I knew one person who used a '57 head on one side of his '60 engine.

What I don't know is about using '61 and later heads on a reverse flow block. I believe the '61 and later heads will bolt onto the earlier block -- but you must insure that water circulation is going to work in the reverse flow manner. If the water elbow mounts to the front of the head and you can insert the water distributing tube in the head, then it will probably work. I would do some close comparison between heads before trying it. Of course later heads will require a later intake manifold.

I realize all this, Larry...it's all been covered in the post's text...the question remains...if the late heads are drilled [if there's meat in the correct places to even drill them] will the reverse flow system cool the heads...in light of the fact early water distribution tubes will not fit the late heads...
This is the true question.
The late block/heads didn't rely on any water distribution tubes and the coolant circulated around the hot cylinders before it ever got to the heads and I've heard of no problems...why won't they work with the reverse cooling system sending even cooler water to the heads first? Are the reservations stated because the reverse cooling passages are smaller and therefor may pass less volume of coolant? Will there be enough? Do the early heads have thin castings at the spark plugs and exhaust vavle seats, necessitating the old distribution tubes? Do the later heads have more cast-iron in these areas? They didn't experience the heating problems of the earlier heads....
See my dilema? I wanna use the late heads in a reverse cooling capacity, complete with the early reverse cooling front cover and the 55-59 elbows at the front of the heads...
I think I can make it work.

[poison heart]

I'm with Rocky, I want to use 62 heads on my 59 but would prefer to use the reverse cooling so it will look stock.

And if the tubes are the only problem, why not make our own? All it was was an thin aluminum sleeve with some holes drilled in it

And why won't the sleeves fit the later heads? Will the water necks bolt on to the later heads?

[Safari Larry]

First let me tell you what I've done, what know, and what I suspect. I've closely compared water passages in a '57 (reverse flow) engine with '60 engine (conventional flow) with the intention of converting the '60 engine to reverse flow.

Heads are almost identical. Water passages in the head to block mating surface are slightly smaller on the '60 heads than the '57 heads. It is the block and front cover combination that make the engine reverse or conventional flow. Comparing water passages in the blocks closely, there are two water passages in the '57 block missing on the '60 block (front cover interface). Those passages are for return flow into the front cover / water pump that allow for some water to flow from heads into the block and are also for water circulation in the block when the thermostat is closed. But those water passages can be drilled in the 60 block and you could use a reverse flow front cover to make the engine reverse flow -- except the water passages in the block deck (head mating surface) are different.

In the reverse flow engine, cooling water enters the heads and into the water distributing tubes which will distribute cooling water evenly along the length of the head so the rear gets the same (almost) amount of cooling water as the front of the head. Cooling water exits the tubes directed at the hot spots in the head. Water first cools the head and then some goes into the block to cool the cylinders and returns through two small holes in front of the block back and on to the intake side of the water pump (that water does not get cooled before it is recirculated). The majority of the water flows from the heads directly back to the radiator and gets cooled and recirculated. Because the cooling water is distributed evenly front to back in the head, the water passages in the block are the same sizes, front to back.

In the conventional flow '60 engine (and later), cooling water exits the water pump into the front cover and then into the front of the block through two large holes. The reverse flow engine has these large holes also but they aren't used. In the '60 engine, cooling water does NOT get distributed evenly front to back thus requiring some means to force water to the back. The water passages in the '60 block deck are not the same as the reverse flow block. Front water passages in the '60 block are missing with increasingly larger holes going to the back. The effect of this would be to force the majority of cooling water to flow to the back of the block and up into the heads. I suspect this arrangement of water passages is a result of careful engineering to insure somewhat even cooling of engine, front to back. Water cools the cylinders, flows out the water passages in the deck and into the heads. A majority of the water flows to the back of the block and up into the back side of heads. That water then flows from rear to front of head and on back to the radiator. Forcing water to the back of the engine was not necessary with the reverse flow engine because of the water distributing tubes.

The difference is in the block, not in the heads. No modification of heads (other than the water distributing tube) is necessary to convert a '60 engine to reverse flow. Modification of block is required. I believe a '60 block could be converted to reverse flow but would require machine work to re center a few water holes in the deck. That's why I decided not to try it. But you have a reverse flow block so that isn't relevant to your questions -- it is the background on what I've learned through observation. Back to your questions.

Can heads from a conventional flow engine be used on an earlier reverse flow block without modification??? Yes, '60 heads can be used on earlier reverse flow engines.

Can heads from '61 and later be used on an earlier reverse flow engine??? I don't know, some changes were made from '60 to '61 and I've never looked closely at the later heads. They will bolt onto the earlier block but will the water passages align? Will oil passages align? Are the water distributing tubes required? I think they are required for proper cooling.

Here's what I would do. I would closely compare the head mating surface on later head with an earlier head (or with earlier block) -- by placing a head gasket on each so I could see where things match or don't (take photos to show us). If they match close enough, then you have only the water distributing tube to be concerned about.

You can run a reverse flow engine without the distributing tubes but I suspect you'll have cooling problems which may not be evident until much later or until it has been put under stress (desert, mountains, etc.). Without the tubes I believe most water will flow into the front of the head and right back to the water outlet. The result is good cooling in front and poor cooling in the rear (valves and cylinders). Personally I would not run a reverse flow engine without those tubes because the penalty is too great if there is a cooling problem. If you are making only short trips and in cool weather, it might or might not be a problem. If you try it, let us know if it ruined the engine or not.

Poison, the tubes are made of stainless, I would not use aluminum. I don't know if the water distributing tubes fit in the later heads, that's something to check. I assumed the elbows would bolt onto the later heads but don't know that for sure. If not, using the later heads doesn't seem feasible at all.

[Bill Hanlon]

Originally Posted by Safari Larry

I assumed the elbows would bolt onto the later heads but don't know that for sure. If not, using the later heads doesn't seem feasible at all.

Poison: I'm pretty sure I have a spare head inlet elbow from an early head. If you'll measure the center-to-center of the two bolt holes on either side of the "freeze plug" on the end of a later head (I don't have a later head) and also the diameter of the plugged hole I'll measure my elbow and let you know if they match up.

I have one coolant distribution tube from a '58 head that is made from stainless. I have heard that earlier tubes were brass, but I've never seen one. My '58 tube does have a brassy tint to it that polished off. Could have just been radiator gunk. Master parts book shows the same part number (518063) being used in both heads in 55/56 engines with 523327 used in passenger side and 523328 in driver side 57/58/59 heads. The heads themselvels can be swapped from side to side. My 58 tube is not quite symetrical cross section.

[CATBIRD]

I seem to recall that there was a thread about a year or so ago, of a nasty looking engine that was built by Nunzi with reverse flow cooling. Maybe someone who knows him could get more information on that build. Seems to me that if you could restrict the head to block passages in the front, the coolant would fill the head passages and then be forced into the block more toward the rear, negating the need for the tubes......John

[poison heart]

Bill, I have a spare elbow and I'll see if they'll bolt on to the 62 heads.

You're probably right on the stainless, Going off of memory they looked aluminum.

Sounds like if the tubes and inlets can be used then it should be no problem putting newer heads on a reverse flow block. Plus the reverse flow just looks cool

[badlefthand]

Elbows for reverse cooling from 59 bolt and line up ok on 60 heads. Elbow hole is 1 1/4 ,inlet hole on 60 heads are 1 3/8.just tried it.I never had a problem interchangeing 59/60 heads way back in early 60s.Never bothered with tube one way or other.Regarding block type I didnt know until Larry confused me. Only have 59/60 heads ,cant check any thing newer.Have a 61 block to check the 59 cover.Its buried but if it will help ill dig it out. I dont see how 59 inlet tubes could ever work on later heads,they are 1 1/4" and are not round but oval except for very ends,which seem to be slighty flared.

[badlefthand]

Elbows are left and right ,wont interchange.You guys know this but looking now since following thread.

[poison heart]

Yeah, The angles are different right?

[badlefthand]

Originally Posted by poison heart

Yeah, The angles are different right?

Right one angles down about 30 degrees ,left comes off looks like straight .Will take pic if needed .

[Safari Larry]

Originally Posted by badlefthand

I never had a problem interchangeing 59/60 heads way back in early 60s.Never bothered with tube one way or other.

That's interesting. Are you saying you swapped heads between 59 & 60 and didn't use the tubes when mounting 60 heads on a 59 block and did use the tubes when mounting 59 heads on a 60 block???

Do you know if there was or was not long-term damage to the engines that could have been attributed to excessive heat, especially in the rear cylinders or valves?

Was there a problem with the heads in those days? If so, were problems more in '59 or '60?

Regarding block type I didnt know until Larry confused me. Only have 59/60 heads ,cant check any thing newer.

Hmmm, Sorry I confused you but now we're even 'cause you confused me!

I dont see how 59 inlet tubes could ever work on later heads,they are 1 1/4" and are not round but oval except for very ends,which seem to be slighty flared.

If the internal casting is the same with the same size hole, the tubes would fit.

Photos of 1957-59 Pontiac water distributing tubes are attached. There is a left tube and a right tube. Flared end is to the front. The 1955-56 tubes were round so interchangeable from head to head. 1955 and part way into 56 the tubes were made of brass.

The preview on these attachments is looking a bit weird so we'll see how it goes.

[poison heart]

I don't see why we can't just make a tube if they are absolutely needed. The shape shouldn't matter as long as the holes are about in the right spot. Like I said before, I have heard of people not using the tubes and being fine

I have a 1960 389 motor pulled from a 59 GMC. The motor has 59 timing cover, heads and intake. I assume someone blew the original 336 and swapped it with a 60 block. I have no idea how it ran and for how long but it's definitely an old swap and it ran when I bought it but smoked. I've been told it probably ran super hot being a 60 block with a 59 cover but IDK.