[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by 3 Deuce 64

Sent the guy an e mail stating cowl tag had KC and vin had p told him what each stood for and where he should look for the vin on the frame if it is stamped his responce to me as follows '

"Dear changaman,

ok smart guy read our answer to questions . as stated we check with local law office ,no reports of this car being stolen , why would we put this if thou other wise .we try to post all answers&questions on as we receive them If we get anymore negatives about this car we stop sell! see its people like you who has made America a hard place to live in. over loaded with laws & bull----,that makes people not want to be upfront & honest, get off our site if you think this


- joye.co.inc "

I responded that he really should pull the car until the vin is straightened out . or he should be reported to e bay for selling a car now knowingly with a switched vin . I told him it probably is a real GTO the cowl tag looks untampered with the vin was switched .

I was looking at a '65 GTO on ebay with a similar situation (cowl tag matched the option content, VIN was for a LeMans).

I wrote the owner a note, as graciously as I could trying to tell him that I thought the car had been stolen, back in the day, and the VIN swapped.

Needless to say, he wasn't very happy with me, either...

K

[rexus31]

Originally Posted by 3 Deuce 64

Sent the guy an e mail stating cowl tag had KC and vin had p told him what each stood for and where he should look for the vin on the frame if it is stamped his responce to me as follows '

"Dear changaman,

ok smart guy read our answer to questions . as stated we check with local law office ,no reports of this car being stolen , why would we put this if thou other wise .we try to post all answers&questions on as we receive them If we get anymore negatives about this car we stop sell! see its people like you who has made America a hard place to live in. over loaded with laws & bull----,that makes people not want to be upfront & honest, get off our site if you think this


- joye.co.inc "

I responded that he really should pull the car until the vin is straightened out . or he should be reported to e bay for selling a car now knowingly with a switched vin . I told him it probably is a real GTO the cowl tag looks untampered with the vin was switched .

The response to my statement was a little more cordial. Listed first is my statement, second is the seller's response.

Q: I am of the opinion you do have a real GTO, despite the results from PHS. Based on your pics, the VIN appears to have been tampered with. The Cowl Tag shows the car to be built in Kansas City (KC) but the VIN indicates it came from Pontiac, MI (P). These should match. The cowl tag appears to be original and unmolested. The 5N option denotes the GTO option. I think this car was at one time stolen and the theives swapped VIN plates and affixed a non GTO VIN. There is one place on the car that has the VIN stamped. It would be on the top of the frame rail behind the left rear wheel. It's a pain to get to but may be worth it in the end. I am 99% sure you will find a different VIN at this location than what is on the door jamb. Feel free to email me if you have any questions. rexus31@hotmail.com

A: will look ,look at wrong place today, seen that vin. tag was screw in , I have just recently lost a 66 f/lane gt in our shop after 2 -3 years maybe someone did the here while building car pre. owner has own car since 1991 & knew car 10 years before that check with local police no old records of GTO in past who knows after 44 years what stories this hot GOAT could either way we are a bonded ($100000)dealer so everybody is protected

[John V.]

I have come across several of these over the years. See the post in The Lobby about the Mustang stolen 37 years ago and now identified. There have been several such theft recoveries in the past few years and probably many more that did not reach the popular press.

Very likely this GTO was stolen and a clean VIN from a wreck was swapped on from a similar car and the car was laundered. Back before computers and sophisticated VIN numbering systems, it didn't even matter if the clean VIN tag was for a Lemans, Tempest, or Tempest Custom. It didn't even matter that the VIN was for a 6 cyl. car.

Given how poorly mounted the VIN tag is on this one, maybe the car was junked and the original VIN tag removed. The 6 cyl. VIN tag may have been attached when the car was resurrected from the dead.

Either way, if anybody was really interested, the original VIN could be determined.

The original VIN for this car was somewhere close to 824M23000 based on the June Time Built code.

The VIN could be found on the original Frame as mentioned. If it had the original trans in it (which it doesn't), the VIN would be stamped on it.

If all else fails, PHS could be used to isolate the VIN from the known info. The '64 KC PHS docs have the Body No. to match the Data Plate right on them. Unfortunately, PHS has no interest in doing the detective work necessary to find the KC VIN record for the Lemans Hardtop Body No. 4898 (assuming I'm reading it accurately). But it wouldn't be very difficult.

The guy who is selling it can't be expected to have a clue. He says the obvious that the VIN on the car comes back clean. What would be more interesting is to learn if the original VIN is listed in the NICB database as having been stolen.

If it was a nicely restored and valuable example, it would be worth pursuing.

Incidentally, this car was either a 3 or 4 spd. man trans without Console. The Console mounted auto trans in it now is not original to this GTO.

[rexus31]

I just think it would be cool to uncover the original VIN and see what the car came with originally and if in fact it was stolen at one point. I woulder what the course of action is if the original VIN is actually in the NICB Database as having been stolen. If the owner at the time of theft is still alive, is he still entitled to get the car back?

[mike nixon]

Originally Posted by rexus31

I just think it would be cool to uncover the original VIN and see what the car came with originally and if in fact it was stolen at one point. I woulder what the course of action is if the original VIN is actually in the NICB Database as having been stolen. If the owner at the time of theft is still alive, is he still entitled to get the car back?

not if the insurance company paid off on it. the claim was settled and the insurance company owns it now.

mike

[John V.]

As mentioned in this thread, if an Insurance claim for loss was paid, the Title goes to the Insurance Co. forever. Even if the Ins. Co. no longer exists, somebody owns those assets.

If the car is subsequently recovered, and the current Owner is obviously not the thief, most likely, the Ins. Co. would cut a deal with the current Owner who will obtain the legal Title from the Ins. Co. and retain possession perhaps for a small fee.

The altered VIN tag will remain an issue that would stain the collector value, I have my own opinion for how that should be dealt with.

The ones that make the news are cars that were not insured against theft. In those cases, the car would be returned to the guy it was stolen from (or his estate if he has died). The current "Owner" would have no recourse. Probably won't be prosecuted for possession of stolen goods. If he can identify who sold it to him, he might be able to make a civil case for recovery. I'm not real sure how the law might work in that case, I assume he'd have to prove a fraud had been committed and if he couldn't prove the guy he bought it from knew it was stolen, fraud probably wouldn't exist. And that assumes he can find the guy. I'm no lawyer, but that is how it has been explained to me.

Auto theft was big biz when these cars were new, and as popular as the GTO was, it should be no surprise that some turn up that have a theft in their history. I also think it would be neat to unravel the history of such a car. But I would not buy one unless the issue was resolved.

Seller says he now has correct VIN and expected to relist. Will be interesting to see if he posts it when/if he relists. If PHS was willing to help with the VIN determination, I'd gladly look to see if the VIN was listed by NICB. Seller doesn't seem like the kind of guy I'd like to do biz with, I'd love to see his reaction if the VIN is listed as stolen and the car was confiscated from him.

[Tom Vaught]

It is too bad that the car does not have the correct door plate (VIN) for the car. As you said, most likely a stolen car at one time. As John says without a matching vin to the real car, even a clone is worth a lot more money as at least the clone is a legal car with GTO badging vs a tampered with body shell/vin.

My buddies 65 Clone GTO (Drag car/ Street car) is in every respect a GTO except for the VIN number on the car (originally a 6 cyl lemans). It has flawless bodywork, has run in the 9s, and provides a great deal of enjoyment for the owner. It is worth a bunch of money (because of the workmanship not that it was being passed off as a GTO). The owner will tell you in a moment that it is a converted car. He has a 65 GTO drag car at one time and made a second one out of a totally rust free Lemans.

It will be interesting to see what the seller does with this deal now that someone pointed out that the car most likely was a KC built 64 GTO. (people have swapped data plates too, unfortunately). Just pointing that fact out too.

Tom V.

[rexus31]

I got an email from the seller asking where exactly the VIN is on the left rear frame. Does anybody know the exact location? Also, what is the best technique for checking the frame rail VIN? Does the tank have to come out, etc., then check with a mirror?

[jarhead]

This is from the Restoration Guide. I found mine in this location when I had the body off. Not sure how easy it is to see with the body on.

[rexus31]

Thanks. I forwarded the info. We'll see if they put forth the effort to check.

[Tom Vaught]

I agree, that is the spot! I have used a small inspection mirror and a bright flashlight to see the stamping.

Tom V.

[John V.]

If Tom's is in that spot, hopefully it will be consistent for all KC builds. Not sure that is very likely.

My Nov. built '64 from Fremont convert frame was stamped on top of the LH frame rail a few inches AHEAD of the no. 4 Body Mount hole, right where the frame starts to narrow before continuing rearward. So that Resto Guide info is not accurate for all. I have no idea if mine is representative of all Fremont builds, but it is obviously different from at least one KC build.

I think it is a long shot to find it anyway with the body on unless the frame is very clean.

I think it would be easier to convince PHS to find the matching record for the Body No. and that simply isn't going to happen! Maybe Jim M. would do it for a reasonable search fee since I've already established it will be pretty close to 824M23000.

Best way is:

1. Remove Body from Frame
2. Dip Frame in Caustic Tank, Redi-Strip process or equal
3. Carefully view LH frame rail in good light with good eyes

I'm very interested in hearing if he does find it using mirrors (and no smoke).