[Diego]

In a recent issue of Muscle Car Review magazine, Jerry Heasley's "Rare Finds" column talked about a black (originally Pepper Green) Judge ragtop that was found in CT, I believe. The production numbers he used showed that more automatic RAIV Judge ragtops were built than sticks.

That didn't seem right to me. For one thing, I always felt the RAIV Judge rag numbers to be fuzzy - not exactly defined - but I always had seen the numbers Heasley quoted but with the sticks and automatics reversed. Plus, total stick RAIV rag numbers were more than automatic. While at MCACN, I saw this PG ragtop and had mentioned the Heasley article to a Poncho-loving friend, and he basically said that they made more automatics - this could have been the owner of the car, but I can't recall after 2+ days of 500-plus cars.

Then, recently while chatting with Lloyd on this site, we looked at Fred Simmonds' sheet that he did around 13 years ago - there's nothing that shows how many RAIV Judge ragtops were built.

So I gotta wonder:

1. Where did this prevailing wisdom of about 18 cars come from?

2. Where did people get the idea more automatics were built?

It's quite possible that better information has come out in the past 23 years, but I don't think I've ever seen anything concrete. Anyone know more?

[Held for Ransom]

I know I don't. There were 37 GTO RAIV's convertibles produced, 24 - stick, 13 - auto. How many were Judges???

['ol Pinion head]

What I've always heard is there were 4 '70 RAIV Judge converts & the rest were automatics. This 4spd to automatic mix does somewhat mirror the following years Judge convert mix...just saying.

If there are more than 4 factory built '70 RAIV 4spd Judge converts, where are they?

1) 242670Z133454 red/red RM auctions sold 2011 Milt R

[The Boss]

Same thing in 1971 - 17 convertibles, 14 of them were automatics.

Prevailing wisdom is that when somebody is paying that much for a top horsepower drop top they will check the box for the slushbox too.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

If there are more than 4 factory built '70 RAIV 4spd Judge converts, where are they?

1) 242670Z133454 red/red RM auctions sold 2011 Milt R

I think that I have spoken with 4 owners of 4-speeds thru the years, counting Milt. One of them could have been an auto though. Uncle Judge should know about one of them (Chuck) as to whether it is an auto or 4-speed.

I have not done a lot in the hobby since the late 80's until I got on this board so I assume there were more than 4 4-speeds just from my experience. Have we accounted for a lot of auto's I wonder?

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I can't get my mind to bring all of them back up front right now that i know of -

for starters

1 Pepper Green - 4spd - topic car

1 Dk Green - 4spd - was being restored and had every piece of sheetmetal taken apart at the spot welds last time it was pictured on here.

1 Red - 4spd - Milts former car Red Red White top

1 Red - 4spd - was an unrestored project last time it was pictured on here.
Believe it was black interior white top

1 Silver - 4spd - BetWinner's old car - now fully retored.

1 Black - Automatic - restored

one or two more i can't get my mind reglued to - but seems they were both 4spd.
believe 1 is Atoll Blue 4spd

Steve Ames probably has one
maybe Cave in MD
maybe Rob in Ill
maybe Sudyam out west
just saying possibilities

i would theorize the 70' IV JVerts followed along the course of the 69 production.
Due mostly to the 3.90 gears
Not like 71's when gearing was more docile and lenient, and only 1 engine available.

[Diego]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

What I've always heard is there were 4 '70 RAIV Judge 4-speedconverts & the rest were automatics.

I've added and bolded what I think you meant above, right?

I've never heard that number. The number I've heard is 18 cars with 6 automatics and the difference being sticks . . . or something like that. But I've never seen a concrete number even from Fred Simmonds, which is born out from his matrix (see attached).

From The Boss

Prevailing wisdom is that when somebody is paying that much for a top horsepower drop top they will check the box for the slushbox too.

I am not sure if I believe in your prevailing wisdom, and here's why: When it comes to hi-po cars, each manufacturer has different trends. For example, Mopars can be a mix that leans one way or another because their sticks weren't always great until they got Hurst shifters, plus Torqueflite was such a great tranny. But when it comes to Pontiacs, all their hi-po cars were more popular in stick than auto - look up 400 HO and Ram Air cars through 1970. With the advent of the 455, that changed, but every RA III/IV ragtop is more popular in a stick than an automatic.

Hence, while the RAIV Judge ragtop may buck this trend, I seriously doubt it despite what I read in Heasley's article.

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Steve Ames probably has one

He had one and may still. I believe it was a 4-speed--not positive.

[The Boss]

What about the Orbit one that was at the show? Pretty sure that one resides with the Black 69 round port drop top Judge.

[Guilty]

Yes Chris, you are correct.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

The Atoll Blue, Blue Int. White Top car is an Automatic.
Forgot about that one.
It was offered at Mecum in May 2009

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...D=SC0509-79384

Here is what they said about it.

- 1 of 17 Ram Air IV Judge convertibles ever built
- Of the 17, only 6 built with automatic transmission
- Only 12 total are known to exist today
- Original engine and transmission
- PHS Documented
- Copy of original Protect-O-Plate
- One of the rarest production Pontiacs ever built


I'm pretty sure there is another Atoll Blue IV JVert with 4spd
and 1 more i knew of that i can't get my marbles to lock on.

But we have 5 Sticks and 2 Autos for sure so far.
Unka J and Telly probably can list all or most of the 12 survivors known

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by The Boss

What about the Orbit one that was at the show? Pretty sure that one resides with the Black 69 round port drop top Judge.

Speak up sonny ! what car what show whats the details wheres the pictures ??
4 speed or Auto

[The Boss]

Stick - the show a couple weeks ago with the barn find car.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

I never heard anyone say before that there even was an OrbitO IV JVert built or in existence. I'm really pleased to know that - seemed there should have been AT LEAST ONE of them - but never heard a peep about it.

Why have there been 3-4 threads regarding this PeppyGreen car and not 1 word or 1 picture about an OrbitO IV 4spd JVert that was at the same show ?


W T F

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Link and pictures to the other Red 4speed
Is Sandalwood Interior - White Top

Was a former Ames car

http://www.hemmings.com/mus/stories/...feature13.html

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Link and pictures to Bet Winners/Uncle Judges former old Silver 4speed

Stated as 1 of 11 four speed JVerts
1 of 17 total

http://www.mecum.com/auctions/lot_de...D=SC0508-65973

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

I never heard anyone say before that there even was an OrbitO IV JVert built or in existence. I'm really pleased to know that - seemed there should have been AT LEAST ONE of them - but never heard a peep about it.

Why have there been 3-4 threads regarding this PeppyGreen car and not 1 word or 1 picture about an OrbitO IV 4spd JVert that was at the same show ?


W T F

You need to pay attention more and not disappear for years at a time. 6 - 4 speeds out there. 2-green, 1 -OO ,1 silver ,2 red . If there's more 4 speeds raiv rags built then I don't have time to talk on this site More digging to do Adios

[MikeNoun]

There's also the barn find black 70 RAIV Judge 4-speed convertible at the MCACN show this year. But perhaps that was the owner (or person) Diego was talking to that started this thread?

[formula400]

Telly, im way a head of you to find the "other" rag tops. I hired the guy who counts holes in fenders. Here is his profile picture.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Found that 4 wheel drum non-power brake OO IV 4spd JVert with Sandalwood interior.

http://www.ricsrestoration.com/proje...ery_only=false

6 sticks and 2 autos

There has to be a Faktry Black IV 4spd out there too
Will send Telly a postcard when i find it. lol