[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by 78w72

turns out champion labs is the first to bring this new design to the market & maybe others will follow, has more/larger holes for better flow which is a good thing

https://contentinfo.autozone.com/zne..._baseplate.pdf

I notice that none of the "new design" filters have a visible (orange) anti-drainback valve.

[PontiacHO]

LS engines supposedly need a higher by-pass pressure rating - 22 PSI vs most all other filters rated lower.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

I notice that none of the "new design" filters have a visible (orange) anti-drainback valve.

I doubt thats "all" the filters they offer... most brands of filters say they have the anti drain back valve only where required.

Most pontiac V8s have an upright filter above the pickup or main bearings, not sure if any little bit of oil above the filter that can potentially drain back would have any negative effects... if it did the filter would most likely have one.

[Holeshot71]

I think I might’ve asked these questions years ago but don’t remember if they ever got an answer. The Baldwin B39 filter I believe does not have an anti-drain back valve? I don’t believe this is a problem on Pontiacs with the oil filters that hang down? And is there a problem using the B39 filter along with the factory bypass valve??

[Kenth]

Both B39 and B9 has a anti drain-back valve.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=323

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=338

No problems w or w/o anti drain-back valve on Pontiac V8´s w factory bypass valve.

Also, WIX 51258 has an anti drain-back valve while the larger WIX51049 don´t.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=349

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=344

FWIW

[ANDYA]

I purchased 4 cases of WIX 51049 filters years ago. Been using these filters on multiple cars and they have no anti- drain back valve. Pontiac filters are for the most part upright and the filter will always be full of oil.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by ANDYA

I purchased 4 cases of WIX 51049 filters years ago. Been using these filters on multiple cars and they have no anti- drain back valve. Pontiac filters are for the most part upright and the filter will always be full of oil.

This is True, the oil filter will always be full of oil, but like someone mentioned, I think it was Steve, oil will drain back out of the galleys back to oil filter then into oil pan.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

No anti-drainback valve means the oil in the main oil galleries ABOVE the filter can drain back. More air in the oiling system above the filter means it takes fractionally longer to get oil to the moving parts.

Does this matter? Maybe, maybe not.

Just asking as I dont know all the specifics on oil filter function... but isnt the ADBV to prevent oil in the filter from draining back? Like in situations where its not upright? Or is it designed to prevent oil in the engine from draining back into the filter... which doesnt make much sense on a pontiac since the filter is upright & stays full.

[chuckies76ta]

Originally Posted by 78w72

Just asking as I dont know all the specifics on oil filter function... but isnt the ADBV to prevent oil in the filter from draining back? Like in situations where its not upright? Or is it designed to prevent oil in the engine from draining back into the filter... which doesnt make much sense on a pontiac since the filter is upright & stays full.

Oil in the filter will not drain back so to speak, as the filter is lower than the hole going into the block from the pump. It's the oil in the engine ahead of the filter that will drain back slowly draining through the oil filter back into the oil pan. The oil filter anti drain back valve will or should hold the oil up in the engine to help prevent those few seconds of dry starts.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

Oil in the filter will not drain back so to speak, as the filter is lower than the hole going into the block from the pump. It's the oil in the engine ahead of the filter that will drain back slowly draining through the oil filter back into the oil pan. The oil filter anti drain back valve will or should hold the oil up in the engine to help prevent those few seconds of dry starts.

Thanks for the info, always thought the ADBV was more for engines where the filter was sideways or even worse upside down. My daily driver is a 4th gen Toyota 4runner with the popular 4.0 V6 used in tacoma trucks & FJ cruisers too, the filter is in probably the best location of any vehicle... right on top the engine like where the alternator is on a pontiac... BUT, its literally completely upside down! Makes for very easy oil/filter changes though.

The ADBV in that situation is to keep the filter itself full of oil when it would want to flow out the top back into the engine, not keeping a very small amount of oil in the engine to drain back down into the filter.

Doesnt the ADBV only work one way, to keep oil IN the filter? Never thought about it much since Ive never had a problem with any type of filters on my pontiac cars.

[Jay S]

That new Champion filter design does look impressive.

I can’t think of any time having an anti drain back valve would be a bad thing unless it negatively affects the flow rating. On an old Pontiac I can’t picture it making much difference either way. The small filter I use with Pontiac’s with header clearance issues does not have a drain back valve.

The use filter drain back valves is kind of all over the place for OEM applications. The newer Mopar 3.8 V6 corporate engine has a canister style filter upside down up on top of engine. When you change the oil there is never oil in it, it is stupid easy to change and doesn’t leave a mess like a spin on. I know someone sells kits to add a drain back valve, which I have always thought would be a good idea. But my 14 Ram with that engine has with over 200K miles on it now, the drain back must not make a lot of difference. I can think of a few even more extreme examples that have no drain back provisions, take a terrible amount of time to build oil pressure, and seem to run forever. Some engines have to have drain back valves, like some Diesel engine that uses oil pressure for other functions in the injection system. Turbocharged engines are sensitive to dry starts too.

[Jay S]

The other day I went to Napa to get a filter. They asked which one I wanted, the Silver or the Gold. I asked what the difference was and they said the Silver was rated for 5000 miles max, the Gold was rated for 10,000. Both made by Wix. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Btw, the Chrysler engine with the crazy filter design on top of the engine that has no drain back feature is a 3.6, not a 3.8.

[Holeshot71]

Originally Posted by Kenth

Both B39 and B9 has a anti drain-back valve.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=323

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=338

No problems w or w/o anti drain-back valve on Pontiac V8´s w factory bypass valve.

Also, WIX 51258 has an anti drain-back valve while the larger WIX51049 don´t.

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=349


https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...t=5340&jsn=344

FWIW

Thanks for the info! I thought I had read the B39 Baldwin filters had no DB valves...

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Jay S

The other day I went to Napa to get a filter. They asked which one I wanted, the Silver or the Gold. I asked what the difference was and they said the Silver was rated for 5000 miles max, the Gold was rated for 10,000. Both made by Wix. Things that make you go hmmmmm.

Btw, the Chrysler engine with the crazy filter design on top of the engine that has no drain back feature is a 3.6, not a 3.8.

When I was doing oil analysis to figure out my oil change intervals I kept stretching it to see how far I could go. I was using, and still use the Wix/Napa Gold filters.

I had found through OA's that I had stretched to 6000 miles and things were still looking good, the filter was still doing a good job. I didn't stretch it further though and just kind of picked 6000 miles as a good spot to change oil in the cars. Could probably go further but I was happy with that, basically saving me double the cost I was spending changing oil in the cars at 3000 miles. I found out that was completely premature.

I need to revisit that again at some point, not just to see if I can go further, but also to just get an update on filter quality and oil quality to make sure nothing has changed.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by chuckies76ta

Oil in the filter will not drain back so to speak, as the filter is lower than the hole going into the block from the pump. It's the oil in the engine ahead of the filter that will drain back slowly draining through the oil filter back into the oil pan. The oil filter anti drain back valve will or should hold the oil up in the engine to help prevent those few seconds of dry starts.

Correct, the drain back valve also provides this function as well.

Basically when sitting gravity will pull oil back down from the gallies into the filter. The thought is that gravity will force the oil over time, through the filter and back into the pan without a drain back valve, basically creating a dry start again.

The anti drain back valve theoretically stops this from happening. The anti drain back valve wont let the oil escape therefore keeping more oil up in the engine, at least that's the thought process behind it anyway.

[chuckies76ta]

Thanks, and like mentioned about filters on top side of engines. I've changed oil in a Mercedes and a Porsche engine with the filter on top and it is just a cartridge filter. No check valves anywhere that I see. Engines start up fine after an oil change.
I had my diesel truck at the dealer for an oil change where they don't fill the oil filter, and upon starting it up you can hear what I believe is the lifters pumping back up. It only last like 2 seconds. I guess the moral of the story in all this as we all know, the sooner oil is everywhere in your engine the better. FWIW.

[Schurkey]

Originally Posted by 78w72

I doubt thats "all" the filters they offer... most brands of filters say they have the anti drain back valve only where required.

LOOK at the photos in the bulletin. Many "old design" filters have an obvious, orange anti-drainback valve visible. NONE of the updated designs have that orange anti-drainback valve visible.

Originally Posted by 78w72

always thought the ADBV was more for engines where the filter was sideways or even worse upside down.

Yes, that would make the situation worse. Even more oil would drain backwards through the plumbing.

Originally Posted by 78w72

Doesnt the ADBV only work one way, to keep oil IN the filter?

It is essentially a one-way valve on the filter inlet. Oil can be pushed past that valve to enter the filter, but (if it's working properly) oil cannot EXIT the filter ENTRY.

[Holeshot71]

Another thing to consider is in a situation where the oil can drain back from the filter the drain back valve may keep contaminants in the filter from going back into the engine.

[Jay S]

Originally Posted by Schurkey

I notice that none of the "new design" filters have a visible (orange) anti-drainback valve.

I don’t think they made any changes to that area, there cutaway still shows the ADBV. I have all Wix, Baldwin and Fleet pride though. I have no experience with Champion. But it nice to see a company interested in improving stuff instead of just finding ways to make it cheaper. The last several years it seems like Wix is just trying to make them cheaper. I have had my more than my share of issues with Wix lately. I think Baldwin is a higher end filter, but also has a a tendency to over filter in some applications, and if the old GM style internal bypass is used, more unfiltered oil gets sent thru the bypass than some other filters. So being over zealous on the filtering doesn’t alway work out like you might expect. A friend had a Subaru that he run cheap Fram filters, then tried a Baldwin and had a ton trouble with engine valve terrain noise. Replaced the Baldwin twice with another Baldwin and couldn’t make the issue go away. He put a cheap Fram back on and all the issue went away.

If someone has a small space saver Champion that works with Pontiac’s on header applications, I’d be interested in trying one of them. I noticed the Wix number I use for headers doesn’t cross to Champion.

[78w72]

Originally Posted by Jay S

If someone has a small space saver Champion that works with Pontiac’s on header applications, I’d be interested in trying one of them. I noticed the Wix number I use for headers doesn’t cross to Champion.

I posted in the other thread where I first showed that champion bulletin on the smaller STP/champion filter I ended up using on my 400 in a 78 TA with hedman 28150 headers, will try to find the thread to link to, it has the filter number.

What was strange is that the full size stp/champ that crosses to the other full size filters did not fit between a header tube & side of bell housing, but all other full size filters Ive tried fit ok, for some reason the full size STP is slightly bigger than most other full size filters and would not fit.

Edit- Heres the thread with the smaller STP/champion filter I used... you commented in there a few times. STP S3675xl https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=877002