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Old 03-14-2018, 09:18 PM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
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Default Electric fan or fans

72 firebird, electric fan time, which is the preferred system, one or two fans and why?

i'm open to recommendations on what brand, size etc. iv'e never ran electric fan(s) before so i'm new to this one.

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Old 03-15-2018, 08:48 AM
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On my 80 TA, I run a champion 4 core radiator, and summit racing brand dual electric fans - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g4851/overview/
I can watch my temp gauge drop significantly when these cut on. They flow 3100 cfm. My car never gets above 185 in the Alabama heat.
I did a lot of research on the type of blades used, etc. and this was one of the best deals I could find when it comes to the style of blade, cfm, and shroud being used.

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Old 03-15-2018, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 455TA View Post
On my 80 TA, I run a champion 4 core radiator, and summit racing brand dual electric fans - https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g4851/overview/
I can watch my temp gauge drop significantly when these cut on. They flow 3100 cfm. My car never gets above 185 in the Alabama heat.
I did a lot of research on the type of blades used, etc. and this was one of the best deals I could find when it comes to the style of blade, cfm, and shroud being used.
I'm using the same radiator, our engine combos are near identical. what all did you purchase with the fans? wiring/dual controller/relay etc?

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Old 03-16-2018, 08:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE3 View Post
I'm using the same radiator, our engine combos are near identical. what all did you purchase with the fans? wiring/dual controller/relay etc?
I didn't purchase anything else to go with it. If you look at my sig picture, you will see the polished aluminum piece that holds the radiator in place. I used the supplied brackets that the fans come with to attach to the aluminum piece on the top side and fabbed up some mounts for the bottom of the fans. Since I have fuel injection, the ecu controls the relays that power the fans to come on at a certain temp. I guess you could just use a fan controller to do the same thing really.
Have you ran yours at the track?

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Old 03-16-2018, 09:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 455TA View Post
I didn't purchase anything else to go with it. If you look at my sig picture, you will see the polished aluminum piece that holds the radiator in place. I used the supplied brackets that the fans come with to attach to the aluminum piece on the top side and fabbed up some mounts for the bottom of the fans. Since I have fuel injection, the ecu controls the relays that power the fans to come on at a certain temp. I guess you could just use a fan controller to do the same thing really.
Have you ran yours at the track?
your faster than me, 11.86 115, engine was in a 69 Judge clone, sold car less the engine. same engine now in my new project. I ran to much gear I believe -a 4.30- with 30" MT'S, this time using a 3.73 gear in my 72 TA clone. but I decided not to use headers this time so i'll likely be low 12's. thanks for the info, so do 2 fans use less amps than one larger one? why 2 fans.

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Old 03-16-2018, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JUDGE3 View Post
your faster than me, 11.86 115, engine was in a 69 Judge clone, sold car less the engine. same engine now in my new project. I ran to much gear I believe -a 4.30- with 30" MT'S, this time using a 3.73 gear in my 72 TA clone. but I decided not to use headers this time so i'll likely be low 12's. thanks for the info, so do 2 fans use less amps than one larger one? why 2 fans.
It will still be a good runner!
As for the fans, these draw a little more amps compared to a single fan when they are both operating at the same time. I have mine setup to where the 2nd fan only kicks on if it reaches a certain temp thats higher than the first fans temp range. Like if I'm sitting in traffic or something, the 2nd fan will kick on. With one fan on, it pulls around 13 amps. My first fan kicks on at 180, and if I get temp creep to 190 or so, the second fan kicks on.
You could very well just go with a single fan, but I kinda like the fact that if one fan fails, I have a backup to limp it home atleast. Just make sure if you get electric fans, that it has a good shroud and flows around 3000 cfm or more.

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Old 03-16-2018, 09:56 AM
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I never have heat issues in the hot summer heat . . . . .until I turn on my AC and have to sit in traffic, then I sometimes have to cycle the compressor.

I get puckered whet it approaches 220. I have a period correct GM flex fan.

Just my 2 cents

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Old 03-16-2018, 02:28 PM
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A dual fan setup will cover more of the core, which will provide better cooling than a single fan. 68-72 A bodies have a fairly wide core, so there's no issue with fitting dual fans.

Get fans that have a shroud, and look for shrouds that have pressure reliefs. This will prevent psi from building when on the highway. The reliefs are nothing more than a hole with a rubber flap on it. They work.

If it's a driver, and you plan on doing long trips, it's best to source a fan setup that is considered for 'primary cooling'. Cheap fans have motors than can burn up fast, or over time they slow down, until eventually, they are like half speed, then no speed.

Blade design is a tightrope, quiet ones are not always as efficient as ones that are loud, but there is a balance. No other way to determine that than actually hear/seeing one running. Look at ones at your local cruise, ask what they run.

If you plan to run a controller (which you really should), make sure the fans will work with the type of controller you use. PWM controllers are best, they ramp up slow, can stagger between 1 or 2 fans, and are the most efficient. If you have EFI, it most likely has a trigger that can be programmed for fans. One good trigger to use is to not have the fans run if engine RPM is <600. It sucks when you go to start your hot ride after you pull up to the pumps or somewhere, both fans kick on, and sucks enough power to prevent from starting.

Personally, fans are one area I don't skimp. Good fans aren't cheap. I prefer one from the big 3, Derale, Flex-a-Lite, and SPAL, in that order. Each make a wide range of fans, and choosing is half the battle. SPAL are the most expensive, but they are primary cooling grade.

The last 2 I did, the 442 and the GTO, I used Derale, which are quite, and are rated at 4600 cfm. They make the same setup with an integrated PWM controller which is real nice:

https://derale.com/products/electric...753-764-detail

Fans, shroud, controller, and hardware, is about $475, to give you an idea, but I will say, if you have a problem with this setup, something else is wrong.

Not sure if that's the one for the 68-72 A bodies, but if you're serious, I can check, and/or you can measure yourself, they list the dimensions with their' products.

I used 66-67 GTO 4 core mounts and isolators to mount mine, and made a simple top plate.

I've used the Flex-a-lite truck one, it will suck a beer out of your hand if you walk too close to the front of the car while it's running, but it's pretty loud.

If you run any electric fan, you need to upgrade your alt and charge wires, period.

.
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Last edited by HWYSTR455; 03-16-2018 at 02:40 PM.
  #9  
Old 03-16-2018, 03:06 PM
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I've used the Flex-a-lite Black Magic fan on 3 different Pontiacs, including the '67 in my signature, and it kept all 3 at 190 or less.

I have used several controllers from DC Controls, and have had zero problems with them. It usually takes a few weeks to get one after ordering, but it is worth the wait. That controller only runs the fan as fast as needed to maintain the temp, using PWM technology to vary the fan speed instead of just having on/off. On/Off causes voltage spikes, and can be rough on some electrical systems.

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Old 03-17-2018, 10:11 PM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
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My engine is block filled to the base of the water jackets, I use the march belt system that spins the water pump slower as well. I notched out the water pump pulley and ran a mechanical flex fan. always ran at 180, and very seldom and only on hot hot Kansas days and sitting would it see 190. going with the electric fans will make it all the better. quality & durability to go with the cooling is what i'm after. the derale with built in controller looks good.

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Old 01-12-2020, 08:34 PM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HWYSTR455 View Post
A dual fan setup will cover more of the core, which will provide better cooling than a single fan. 68-72 A bodies have a fairly wide core, so there's no issue with fitting dual fans.

Get fans that have a shroud, and look for shrouds that have pressure reliefs. This will prevent psi from building when on the highway. The reliefs are nothing more than a hole with a rubber flap on it. They work.

If it's a driver, and you plan on doing long trips, it's best to source a fan setup that is considered for 'primary cooling'. Cheap fans have motors than can burn up fast, or over time they slow down, until eventually, they are like half speed, then no speed.

Blade design is a tightrope, quiet ones are not always as efficient as ones that are loud, but there is a balance. No other way to determine that than actually hear/seeing one running. Look at ones at your local cruise, ask what they run.

If you plan to run a controller (which you really should), make sure the fans will work with the type of controller you use. PWM controllers are best, they ramp up slow, can stagger between 1 or 2 fans, and are the most efficient. If you have EFI, it most likely has a trigger that can be programmed for fans. One good trigger to use is to not have the fans run if engine RPM is <600. It sucks when you go to start your hot ride after you pull up to the pumps or somewhere, both fans kick on, and sucks enough power to prevent from starting.

Personally, fans are one area I don't skimp. Good fans aren't cheap. I prefer one from the big 3, Derale, Flex-a-Lite, and SPAL, in that order. Each make a wide range of fans, and choosing is half the battle. SPAL are the most expensive, but they are primary cooling grade.

The last 2 I did, the 442 and the GTO, I used Derale, which are quite, and are rated at 4600 cfm. They make the same setup with an integrated PWM controller which is real nice:

https://derale.com/products/electric...753-764-detail

Fans, shroud, controller, and hardware, is about $475, to give you an idea, but I will say, if you have a problem with this setup, something else is wrong.

Not sure if that's the one for the 68-72 A bodies, but if you're serious, I can check, and/or you can measure yourself, they list the dimensions with their' products.

I used 66-67 GTO 4 core mounts and isolators to mount mine, and made a simple top plate.

I've used the Flex-a-lite truck one, it will suck a beer out of your hand if you walk too close to the front of the car while it's running, but it's pretty loud.

If you run any electric fan, you need to upgrade your alt and charge wires, period.

.
What amp alternator is needed and what wires need upgraded to run it?

thanks

  #12  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:14 PM
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Quote:
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What amp alternator is needed and what wires need upgraded to run it?

thanks
Well, that's kind of a loaded question, since when you calc/size an alt, you have to take the total of all loads. A good start is to add the load of the fans to the load you already have.

You can reduce loads by upgrading to more efficient items, like switching to LED headlights/running lights, etc.

The Derale setup I posted comes with a PWM controller built into the shroud, so even though each fan is rated at max 24.8a, times 2, for a total of 49.6a, the controller will rarely go over 80%. (40a). The controller also prevents 'shocks' to the system with slow start and ramp up.

Anyway, a good alt that I use as a go-to is the Powermaster 12si #47294. It's a 150a, v-belt, and will not overcome the belt (slip). It supports the dash 'ALT' light, and is a direct replacement, but you might have to clock it for your app.

You can swap the ALT, and run a QUALITY SGT 6g power wire & terminals to you batt or starter POS post. (https://www.wirebarn.com/Battery-Cable-_c_657.html) . Match your ground(s) to your POS batt cable. That will handle just about everything you can throw at it, as long as you have a good battery and the rest of your electrical system is good.

The fan setup comes with the appropriate wires, connectors, and breaker, follow the directions included. It has an internal solid state relay built in, pretty much just power, ground, and temp signal.


.

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  #13  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:20 PM
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You can also use hot water heater pipe insulation (noodles) to help seal the core/rad. It comes in black if you look hard enough, does not absorb water, and is resistant to heat and most chemicals. Most.


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  #14  
Old 01-12-2020, 10:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee View Post
I've used the Flex-a-lite Black Magic fan on 3 different Pontiacs, including the '67 in my signature, and it kept all 3 at 190 or less.

I have used several controllers from DC Controls, and have had zero problems with them. It usually takes a few weeks to get one after ordering, but it is worth the wait. That controller only runs the fan as fast as needed to maintain the temp, using PWM technology to vary the fan speed instead of just having on/off. On/Off causes voltage spikes, and can be rough on some electrical systems.
I really like the DC Controls FK-75, know a number of people who swear by them, and never had an issue with them.

The Black Magic fans are good too, and ran the # 295 dual setup for years. That was the highest draw fan I have seen to date, and the controller worked pretty good. That thing would suck a beer can out of your hands if you walked too close to the grill when it came on.


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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
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Old 01-17-2020, 05:49 PM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
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from what iv'e studied up on, you cannot run "to much" alt amps. alt system will only use what's in demand.

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Old 01-18-2020, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
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from what iv'e studied up on, you cannot run "to much" alt amps. alt system will only use what's in demand.
Well, that not true per se, with a V belt, I've found that anything over about 150a will slip. With a sudden load, the alt will throw all it makes at it, and that's when slip happens.

Once it starts slipping, the belt is toast. Just because it doesn't squeal doesn't mean it's not slipping. Once a belts starts slipping it glazes and progressively gets worse, which can super heat the alt shaft, and that can, and usually does, fry the alt.

If you tighten the belt too much, you wipe out the alt bearing, and/or the water pump bearing. In extreme cases of over-tightening, you can actually cause a load on the crank, and negatively impact the front main bearing.

A sure indication of belt slip and shaft overheating is if the alt pulley is discolored.

The CS130 alts have smaller bearings, especially in the nose, which is why I gave up on them. Because with a v belt, you have to tighten it pretty much to the limit, and that wipes out the alt bearings. The 'cooling' mods don't help the bearings.

With alts over like 90a, you need to make sure it's properly grounded too. Paint build up, coatings, etc can all impact the ground, and not only does that effect the charging, but can also cook internal regulators.

Big fans with no PWM controller, snap on and off, which produces a voltage spike. Spikes can be over what the fan(s) are rated at, so for like a pair of 25a fans, you can see a spike of up to 70a. That spike on/off, repeatedly, can cook an alts' internal regulator. Just like with big stereos, running a stereo cap can 'absorb' some of those spikes, and helps alts (under heavy loads) last. Doesn't matter where in the circuit that cap is either, it still helps.

Serp setups totally alleviate the V belt issue, and you can basically run any output alt you want, and even CS130s if you choose. The contact patch of the belt on the pulley is much larger than a V belt, so less tension is required to prevent slip.


.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
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1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
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  #17  
Old 01-19-2020, 10:20 AM
JUDGE3 JUDGE3 is offline
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that's something I hadn't thought about.

fortunately I'm using the march serpentine belt system anyway. but...…...the march system is kinda hard to get real good belt tension. obviously the march system is designed for electric fans anyway.

here's why I want to use electric fans this time to begin with: on a previous car I used this system and modified the front pully to accept a traditional flex fan. didn't want the hassles of the electric fan modification. well the flex fan causes a brief drag on the belt at quick throttle and even the serpentine belt chirped in that condition. even used the criss-cross gator belt.

so now, I have no flex fan and no slip at quick throttle. I figured that, so going with electric fans this time. wiring is my weak link though darn it. sounds like a powermaster 150 amp alt will do the job? I have no other accessories beyond stock.

  #18  
Old 01-19-2020, 06:23 PM
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I heard March has an add-on belt tensioner, if you don't have one, maybe call them. I hear after adding the tensioner, it might be a challenge to get the belt length right, but that's not unheard of anyway.

Yeah, the Powermaster will work great for you, and pretty sure March uses Powermater alts anyway. Some of the March setups use CS130 alts, so you need to make sure which one you have/need, and get the right one.

Style Track and Revolver use CS130s, the Ultra uses a 10/12si. Or at least that's how I recall it.

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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=760624
1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...ght=procharger
Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
  #19  
Old 01-19-2020, 10:04 PM
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hgerhardt hgerhardt is offline
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I've been running a CS144 (140A?) for 20 years now with a single V-belt and EFI and 2 fuel pumps and a twin-motor electric fan and Euro headlights and an Odyssey PC-925 battery and haven't had a belt problem yet.

CS 144 is a bolt-on with standard Pontiac brackets so it's an easy retrofit. And the bearings in the CS144 are substantially better than a CS130.

  #20  
Old 01-20-2020, 01:37 PM
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Well, the 144 is actually physically larger in diameter than the 10/12si alts, and only fit with the early bracket setups. The post-70 brackets that have the fixed 'C' mounting area you have to wobb out in order for them to fit.


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1970 GTO Judge Tribute Pro-Tour Project 535 IA2
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1971 Trans Am 463, 315cfm E-head Sniper XFlow EFI, TKO600 extreme, 9", GW suspension, Baer brakes, pro tour car
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Theme Song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zKAS...ature=youtu.be
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