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Old 03-12-2020, 09:20 AM
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Default Transmission choice for a truck with a 389\400

Looking at options for a transmission to use behind a Pontiac 389 or 400 in a '52 International L-130 dually. Truck has a GVW near 7,000 lbs and it would still be used for general hauling. Rear end is likely a 5.xx ratio and would stay in place. Tires are 16" LTs but would probably get swapped out for later model rims around 19.5" and taller tires. Would like to keep it a 4 speed or maybe a 5 speed.

What transmission would be best suited for this application?

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Old 03-12-2020, 10:16 AM
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I assume you're looking for a manual trans vs an automatic?

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Old 03-12-2020, 10:48 AM
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I just googled it and read a little bit about those trucks, seems they were geared in the 6.00 range. Top speed was about 40 MPH. If you're going to keep original gearing you're going to have to look into something with OD to drive it on the highway.

Going to a taller tire (245/70/19.5) will help as you've eluded to. 19.5 wheels to your bolt pattern could be tough to find without knowing what the OEM IH pattern is.

I would want an OD transmission myself too. If you're going to stay with a stick then selection will more than likely a late model stick truck that has OD. One ton GM dually, but I have no idea how difficult it would be to adapt that to a Pontiac bellhousing. One other thing is the maximum clutch size for a Pontiac is 11 inches single disc, not the optimum for a truck that is heavy and might have a load in it. Most of the GM trucks in that weight range would have a minimum of a 12 inch clutch, or a multi disc clutch.

My personal preference would be a 4L80E which came in the GM light duty trucks starting in 1991, until around 2012. It will stand up to the load, can be easily adapted with a plate adapter from a chevy pattern to a Pontiac bell pattern. They can also be had with an emergency brake assembly and drum on the rear of the transmission if you need an emergency brake. Being that the 4L80E is electronically controlled you need a ECM to do this swap, plenty of aftermarket ECMs available to control that transmission.

Allison would be a step up from the 4L80E, adapting that to a Pontiac bell pattern surely would be a major undertaking for physically bolting it to a Pontiac, and the the electronic controls needed.

One other option would be a transplant of the entire drive train from a late model dually into the IH chassis, better gearing for a more modern engine, and rear disc brakes depending upon what donor truck you pull from.

I'm far from an expert on what you're asking, but I do have some knowledge of what you're trying to do, just from working on trucks, and owning a few of them over the years.

Pick your poison.............

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Last edited by Sirrotica; 03-12-2020 at 10:53 AM.
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Old 03-12-2020, 11:10 AM
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That's a tough call, since not sure how much room there is under there, and the GVW rating scale, but Tremec makes light and medium duty 'truck' manual transmissions.

Here's the TR-4050, which should fit the bill, and be able to tow up to 22,000 GVW (including vehicle) with an input shaft TQ rating of 425ftlbs and 457ftlbs, so it should live behind a 389/400.

http://www.tremec.com/anexos/TREMEC_TR-4050_0318.pdf

They make 2 models, a 2WD and a 4WD one. The 4WD one is about $3650, couldn't find a price on the 2WD one, but sure you could call a Tremec dealer and check. I suspect the 2WD version is less than the 4WD one.

I see people doing conversions to the TR-4050, and in typical consumer-grade street trucks, so it's heavily supported.

Here's an article on the TR-4050 swapped into a Jeep CJ:

https://tremec-blog.com/tremec-tr-40...sion-solution/


The other trans that comes up in truck, jeep, and off-road circles is the NV4500, and it's said the TR-4050 is much better. I would imagine the Tremec has good support, but I don't know anything about the NV4500.

I see rebuilt NV4500s at popular rebuild places in the $1200-1600 range, but I don't know the bellhousing requirements.

Here's an article on the NV4500 from an off-road site:

http://www.offroaders.com/directory/products/NV4500.htm

You will have to dig some more, maybe go on some of the classic International Truck forums? They are popular, and have a heavy following.

.

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Old 03-12-2020, 11:43 AM
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Looks like Quick Draw makes an adapter bellhousing for a TR-4050 to Chevy SBC/BBC/LS, so you could use a Pontiac to Chevy adapter with this:

https://quickdrawbrand.com/product/b...remec-tr-4050/

I didn't go through all their' products, but guess you could probably find the same for the NV4500.

Both are overdrive 5 speeds by the way.

Looks like Summit has some NV4500 to Chevy adapters:

https://www.summitracing.com/search/...ssion-adapters


.

.

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Old 03-12-2020, 12:41 PM
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I admire your loyalty to Pontiac, but wouldn't it be easier to swap in a mid to late '70's I.H.C. powertrain?

Available 392, 401, 406, 478, 549

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Old 03-12-2020, 02:13 PM
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I think the Pontiac would actually fit in an L130 IHC as well or better than one of the IHC V8s. IRC that has a fairly narrow cab and the steering sector and shaft might be in the way. We have a collection of IHC trucks and pickups. My brother and I have a 68 4 door crew cab dually with a turbocharged V8 Cat deisel. It has a big 5 speed with a 4 speed auxiliary for an over drive. It is a IHC 1.5 ton pickup my brother and I converted. It has 7.50-20s and 5.50something gearing. All the others old binders we have are either V8s or inline 6s. Their V8s are HUGE looking. I have a 67 short box with the little V8 (265 cid) lol. It makes a BBC look dainty. The 345 and 392 have a little taller block yet! A 549 gas is bigger yet, getting close to the size of the CAT engine we have. That V8 CAT we have takes up the WHOLE engine compartment. I could post a picture if you want a good laugh. But is a totally different chassis than a early 50s IHC, much bigger engine compartment!


The NV4500 5 speed manual tranny for the money would be an awesome tranny if you could figure out how to mount the starter with a chevy bell housing adapter. That is the problem, starter is on the wrong side. But I suppose you could just take a plasma cutter and cut out the hole for the starter into the bell housing.

The New process 435 4 speed basically bolts right up to a BOP Muncie bell housing. A couple bolts are slightly different on the centers. I have a friends that has one behind a 455. There are some older transmissions that were 5 speeds and had a overdrive. I have one somewhere. I don’t remember what bolt pattern it has. I know it drops right in place of a 4 speed. I can’t remember if they are New process or spicers. IRC, 5 gear and 1st are reversed or some weird thing. Been awhile since I drove one.


Last edited by Jay S; 03-12-2020 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Type
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Old 03-12-2020, 03:11 PM
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I would stay away from the NV4500. Many of the internal components are no longer available. The TR-4050 is actually a better transmission overall. If you do choose to go the automatic route( as Brad posted earlier), the 4L80E is hard to beat even in its stock form.

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  #9  
Old 03-12-2020, 03:48 PM
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Definitely thought about using an OD AT and as I keep getting older it makes more sense really. The main reason for going Poncho is because it's what I have available and also the abundant torque would move that truck loaded no problem. Also have a 283 which runs nice that I had in a '62 C30 dually. Could run that with a SM420 or SM465 but neither of those trannys would solve the rear end ratio issue.

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Old 03-12-2020, 05:23 PM
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In a automatic the 700r4 has the lowest factory 1st gear set. I would want a low first gear set in a big truck, might not matter as much if you have really low gearing though.
FWIW...The 4L80 probably has the best “working” OD to D gear set if you are climbing hills out on the open road.

I suggested the nv4500 option mostly because used ones are out there, and they are not that pricey ($600-$900). TR-4050 is probably a better choice if you do not mind paying the extra price and going with a rebuild or new unit. My 97 Dodge 5.9 Cummins dually is fuel up to probably 350ish HP, it has a NV4500 behind it with well past 300,000 miles and we have never touched the transmission, we tow 10K plus loads all the time. I really do not see an issue running a used nv4500. I can’t speak for all of them , but our has been tough.

283 would be a super easy swap. But compared to a 389 it would not be blessed for power.


Last edited by Jay S; 03-12-2020 at 05:25 PM. Reason: Edit
  #11  
Old 03-12-2020, 05:36 PM
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The 283 definitely won't have as much power\torque. But the little SBC was a huge improvement over the fresh rebuilt 235 6 cyl I had in the '62 dually originally. With 2 tons of gravel the 235 barely pulled the hills around here. The International should have something like a 220 6 cyl so I'd imagine the 283 would be a similar upgrade.

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Old 03-12-2020, 06:00 PM
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I could definitely see how it would be a good idea to plan ahead when trying to pull onto a highways with a 235 in a dump truck.


You probably have a Borg Warner t98 in your truck now if it is a 4 speed. That basic trans was used through the late 70s, IRC a t98A replace time t98 in the late 60s.

The 5 speed overdrive that IHC used that drops right in its place is called a T34. If you can find one, IRC, they look the same as a T35 and T36 on the outside but those were direct drive versus a t34 was OD.

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Old 03-12-2020, 07:32 PM
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If you can live with an odd shift pattern the 3053A out of a military 2 1/2 would be a good choice. I would start up in 2nd gear with the 2 1/2 unless I had a heavy load.

3053A & 3052 $1,560.00 + $400.00 CORE


- 2.5 Ton Applications - 5 Speed Overdrive (3053A)​​

​ 5 Speed Direct (3052)

Make: Spicer

Model: 3053A

Gear Ratio: Reverse 5.90:1 Third 1.89:1

First 6.00:1 Fourth 1.00:1​

Second 3.31:1 Fifth 0.85:1



*The 3053A Spicer Transmission fit almost all Diesel applications as well as most Chevrolet engines. Dodge and Ford applications are more expensive to install.*
I think it has been used with a Pontiac engine already.

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Old 03-12-2020, 08:13 PM
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The limitation of a maximum 11 inch clutch is going to be a problem if you use the truck for anything more than just driving empty, way too little surface area for pulling any real load, the transmission won't be the weak link.

I agree that at an advanced age, an automatic is probably a better choice. I have an IH S1654 7.3 IDI diesel, ex U haul van, cab and chassis, that I've converted into a wrecker that came with a CM4054D Spicer 5 speed. If I could change it over economically to an automatic I would, problem is it's a much heavier truck (16,000 GVW) than the OP is working with so no possibility of using a light duty transmission, would have to be an Allison.

The other problem is no PTO on a 4L80E for the hydraulic pump, Allison has that.

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Old 03-12-2020, 11:01 PM
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The 455 with the NP435 4 speed I mentioned earlier has a 10.5” twin disk McLeod. I think it would take any kind of abuse the 455 could dish out. He was constantly destroying drive line parts and eventually had a heavier drive line made for the truck.

If the IHC truck has 16” wheels it probably has the old 6 bolt wheel pattern. There are some rear end options in that bolt pattern that would work better with a direct drive transmission. Probably is not all that easy to hunt down 50 year old IHC parts. They are around though. We have a Dana 60 in that 6 bolt pattern with a 4.88 posi. IHC used there own differentials sometimes too. I had one that was a 4.10 ratio in my 61 4x4 1200. It’s rear end went out and I converted it to a Dana 60.

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Old 03-13-2020, 01:22 AM
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I believe when the OP prices a twin disc kit, plus the cost of a transmission, the 4L80E will look pretty good.

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Old 03-13-2020, 06:11 PM
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Looks like a 1 ton truck from the google images I saw

In my opinion, if you have a 389 or 400 available,

I would use a 400 turbo and find a newer 1 ton rear, something from the 70's-80's.

Should get you a ratio roughly 4.10 - 4.56 and newer brake parts and wheels that are easier to find.

Definitely cheaper,

Some driveshaft work and spring perch on the housing relocation and your rolling.
Good Luck

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Old 03-20-2020, 12:56 AM
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Default od trans ???

u can always run a thm400 with a gear vendors OD on the back ,,easy to setup, no adapter plate,capable of pulling a heavy load with OD turned off,and bullet proof,,,

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Old 03-20-2020, 02:20 AM
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I'm just guessing that you don't know the 4L80E has 75% of the same exact internals as a T400, and it already has OD designed by GM engineers for light truck usage. Not seeing any advantage of using a $3000 GV unit so you don't have to use a adapter plate between the engine and transmission, that costs $50, and takes 15 minutes to install.......

The OP could have a 4L80E transmission with a new TCM for under $1500, in the truck and running, and be every bit as sturdy as a T400 with a GV unit that he would spend at least $3500 for. Even a stock 4L80E is good for 450 HP, probably plenty strong enough for a streetable 389, or 400 Pontiac. The 4L80E is engineered for usage in light duty trucks up to 15,000# GVW.

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Old 03-20-2020, 09:41 AM
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Got the old truck home, it's going to need some body work including a replacement fender and grill. The 389 with overdrive sounds like a plan the more I think about it.
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