[nikrnic]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Absolutely! A beautiful, powerful engine for sure. I was just trying to find an apples to apples comparison between a Pontiac and a Chevy 409/340. The highest RPO Pontiac engine from 64 would have been a 421 HO 370 HP. Of course in 63, some would include the SD-421 in the mix. It's all a fun numbers game. Anything producing over 1 HP per inch in the muscle car era was a big deal....and there were only a few .

Didn't know they made a 400hp, I think there was a 380hp version?

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[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by nikrnic

Didn't know they made a 400hp, I think there was a 380hp version?

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The first 409 in 1961 was the 1 x 4 aluminum intake 360HP @ 5,800 RPM available on the SS model.

1962 offered the single 4 Bbl 380HP and 2x4 409HP versions.

1963-64 offered the 340 HP, single 4 Bbl 400HP and 2x4 425 HP versions.

1965 was a 1/2 year production with the 340HP and single 4 Bbl 400HP.

The 340HP version used the smaller heads/valves & cast iron intake.

The 400HP used an aluminum intake and are harder to find as fewer were made.

The 348 and 409 were both used in large trucks right up to 1965 although the 348 was dropped in cars for 1962.

The there was the grand daddy of all - the 1962 427 Z11 super stock engine of which approximately 50 were made and sold to select racers. Special engine parts specific to the Z11, aluminum hoods, fenders, bumpers, and lightened components. 13.5:1 compression rated at 430HP...........but was pushing over 500HP. Talked to a guy who had bought one as he worked at a Chevy dealership as a young man and they were able to get one. He had his fun with it and when he went to sell it, he could not unload it. He said he had to pull the engine and install a 283 to finally sell it and later sold the engine. He was kicking himself for letting the cr go, but no one knew they would ever be worth what they are now, and, back then these cars did not re-sell well as they were racing cars. Look at old magazines in the back where cars are for sale and you won't believe the low prices on these super stock racers - whether Chevy, Pontiac, Mopar, or Fords.

[Skip Fix]

Just saw this thread. 400 hp version was just a different year single 4bbl high perf heads like the 380 HP.

My first car was a 340HP 4 speed 64 Impala SS. Picked up some #690 HP heads(the 340 HP used the same smaller port heads as a 348) a 400 HP intake added a Holley 812 cfm DP(some weird GM motor carb the speed shop bought a bunch of had a divorced choke also) Hooker headers and a 4.11 posi and the "need for speed" was on! Found a dual quad intake and 715 Holleys I put on sideways to fit-Offy adapter. Doing that added a big Crane SFT 310/320 duration .580/.590 lift added a scatter shield and aluminum Hays flywheel(still have). After ripping all the ring gear bolts out-had a spacer plate went to a "thick gear 4.56.. Ran 12.20s @ 108 at the '72 IHRA Longhorn Nationals and Nationals.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Just saw this thread. 400 hp version was just a different year single 4bbl high perf heads like the 380 HP.

My first car was a 340HP 4 speed 64 Impala SS. Picked up some #690 HP heads(the 340 HP used the same smaller port heads as a 348) a 400 HP intake added a Holley 812 cfm DP(some weird GM motor carb the speed shop bought a bunch of had a divorced choke also) Hooker headers and a 4.11 posi and the "need for speed" was on! Found a dual quad intake and 715 Holleys I put on sideways to fit-Offy adapter. Doing that added a big Crane SFT 310/320 duration .580/.590 lift added a scatter shield and aluminum Hays flywheel(still have). After ripping all the ring gear bolts out-had a spacer plate went to a "thick gear 4.56.. Ran 12.20s @ 108 at the '72 IHRA Longhorn Nationals and Nationals.

If you have the time later, I would be interested in hearing your first hand observations, comparing and contrasting Pontiac V-8 engines with the 409 Chevrolet. You can add some unique perspective here with your knowledge of both engine platforms. I have built a few W engines but never really spent time with them on the road or race track. Look forward to hearing your response.

[PontiacJim1959]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

Just saw this thread. 400 hp version was just a different year single 4bbl high perf heads like the 380 HP.

My first car was a 340HP 4 speed 64 Impala SS. Picked up some #690 HP heads(the 340 HP used the same smaller port heads as a 348) a 400 HP intake added a Holley 812 cfm DP(some weird GM motor carb the speed shop bought a bunch of had a divorced choke also) Hooker headers and a 4.11 posi and the "need for speed" was on! Found a dual quad intake and 715 Holleys I put on sideways to fit-Offy adapter. Doing that added a big Crane SFT 310/320 duration .580/.590 lift added a scatter shield and aluminum Hays flywheel(still have). After ripping all the ring gear bolts out-had a spacer plate went to a "thick gear 4.56.. Ran 12.20s @ 108 at the '72 IHRA Longhorn Nationals and Nationals.

My 409 was a real beast by my standards and was the fastest car I owned to date. Loved my GTO's, but that 409 was way stronger. I am hoping my 1968 Lemans 455/469CI build will equal that feeling. It may be me, but the guy who shoots for a 10 second street build and never had a "muscle car" in the past, just can't appreciate what a hard pulling 12-second or low 13 second car is like - as if it is a slug. Just as much fun, just as much tire smoke, and a lot less money invested in the engine, trans, rear axle, and traction mods. More bang for the buck in my book, and I can drive it to a car show without a trailer having a supplemental 250 gallon gas tank.

[tempest1964]

That's a good question Mike. Like the magazine said: Inquiring minds want to know!

[Skip Fix]

So look at who is out in front on this time trial run-the Pontiac or the 409 Lots of BBC Chevelles and Camaros fell to the "it's just a 348 truck motor" on the street with the 4.556, aluminum flywheel and cheater slicks on the street! Again a street car running low 12s 1971-1972 weighing 3850lbs. Broke lots of stuff-found what to look for on used speed parts(like the rear gear spacer plate)

So have a funny story for you all about the car. So senior year 1972 Longhorn Nats started tjursday Friday Sat and Sun. Got the car back together Thursday afternoon after something had broke or maybe a clutch swap. So open headers buzz it through 1-2-3 on the street beside us a long one, turned around in a driveway did the same thing back to the house. The group was all patting each other on the backs it was running good and all of a sudden we hear a helicopter(new to Dallas PD) hovering over the house. we all run inside. Two squad cars pull up. Knock on the door. "son is that your red car" yes sir, Well since we did not see you we cant do anything but put the damn mufflers on it!" Towed it behind my best friend's 70 Challenger and won class. Even ran even with Dave Boertman of the Rod Shop in his 340 Dart in time trials. Even though he was in a different class felt good for a high school group with a motor with 70K miles and cast pistons!

[Skip Fix]

Most guys early 70s had forgotten about 409s and after pulling the 409 badge off the fender is how we got away with it. Most thought it was a 327. And we did have to peel the decals off the get street races!

One of my 70s street racing buddies was into Pontiac even put one in a 65 Chevelle! His 455 65 GTO is why I believe in scattershields!! Looked like an Uzi shot up the floor board and even the hood!He had some fast cars Pontiac powered.He races sprint cars now.But after getting into Pontiacs with my 78 Trans Am(my first new car ever) I had much more respect for them personally. It had better handling, gauge package and looks than the 78 Z28s did so I went Pontiac.

So back to the question 409s or Pontiacs-I think they are both intake port limited so are both going to be torquey compared to other platforms. But like Pontiac the best flowing head(RAIV, HO, SD) is going to make the best HP. The good HP heads #690s 61-63 and #583 in '64 t use a taller valve spring for a bigger cam, flow only about 260 cfm @ 0.6 with some pocket porting. The Hi perf motors had a nice flowing exhaust manifolds like the RA/HOs-and even the repos go for a lot of $. Edelbrock 409 head-and I was shocked they felt there would be demand to put them out flow about 310 with the better flowing Edelbrock dual quad intake. Using the same thought process for a Pontiac works on a 409.

The chamber on the block did make a heavy dome piston and heavier to one side where the block combustion chamber is. Jahn's had a Fire slot piston that basically had a slot(dish) below what little chamber was in the head around the valves (head there is 15cc)-king of like guys do with high CR motors and small head chambers now. Most of the heavy HP motor forged pistons suffered from skirt collapse after heavy usage. My motors lighter cast pistons were maybe a blessing-until I dropped a valve racing a stout SBC 55 Chevy on Luna Road when it was in the boonies(I think Gas Monkey Garage is off Luna Road now). Broke the exhaust rocker and it hit the retainer and dopped the exhaust valve and we never found the head. Picture of the TRW intake in it. They had angle plugs too! The 7/16" pushrods and 3/8 stem valve made a heavy valvetrain which was an issue at higher rpm for them.

4.3125 bore and a 3.5 stroke but still had some decent bottom end. Forged rods -409s shorter than 348s 6.135, forged crank 409 blocks had ArmaSteel main caps. Same main spacing as BBC so before ready made stroker cranks from Eagle etc came out guys turned down 3.76 396/427 or 4" 454 cranks. Although the 409s use a SBC crank snout but balancer keyway is in a different spot so TDC marker will be off. SBC and BBC oil pumps swap out. Cam and crfank gears are SBC with a 348-409 specific timing chain. Distributor is shorter and specific to 348-409s.

The chamber in the block is a different deal. My machinist said Ford has some old motor that was that way also. One thing about that is if you are using big lift cam you have to worry about exhaust valve to block clearance and have to notch to block over about .550 because of the angle. Probably why my old motor would break rocker arms with .590 lift -did not know to check. Although Lamar Walden the 409 guru told me it was the Crane ramps in 409s back then did it too.

I will tell you the place we dyno'd my 500" IA was surprised at the power on it compared to many 496 BBC they build, and then also the 470-409 I built compared to BBCs. Block for it was one I had from the 70s! it has a 4" Eagle crank 6.385 BBC rods and JE pistons. The headers were some of the last 409 TriYs the Jardines were still making 15 yeas ago.

[Skip Fix]

A big issue with the 409 heads is the angle the flow has to go into the intake port. the short turn is rather exaggerated from the intake it actually hits a very flat floor then has to go back up some over the short turn. Caused I think by the head angle having the combustion chamber in the block. Probably why on the extra high peformance Z-11s the raised the port and were about the first High Port heads. The Z11s kept the 4.3125 bore but stroked it to 427 ci and had a bigger cam.

Carl McQuillen has some new improved aluminum "Z-12" heads that are bad ass looking!

[Skip Fix]

Here is a link to the Z-12 heads,
https://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/...heads.1000831/

[mgarblik]

Thanks Skip. That's what I was hoping for. I think the Ford engine you referenced was the MEL engine, (Mercury, Edsel, Lincoln) from around 1958-67. It had the chamber in the block as well. That Z12 head and intake tract are a huge improvement. I love to see innovations in the old/forgotten engine platforms. Every car on the road doesn't have to have a cookie cutter LS powerplant under the hood to be cool, modern and fast. Pontiac, 348-409 Chevy , Oldsmobile, FE Ford, AMC all have cool things being developed or available.

[Skip Fix]

Yep I'm kind of into odd engine platforms! If the Z-12s had been out a few years ago I might have bought some. When Edelbrock came out with our Pontiac heads the first run was sold out when I bought my first set, took awhile for them to get going for my second set. That is why I picked up the 409 heads. Dave Bisshop at SD Performance has a CNC program for them!

For those of you in the Dallas area Pat Lobb who owns the Toyota dealership in Allen has multiple Z-11 cars, factory experimental 409 mechanical FI system, an original Mystery Motor,a 65 factory Hemi car and a bunch of neat stuff he likes to show off.

Heck I wouldn't mind an old AMX either,fat tires under it like the old SS cars. Had a couple of guys I met in the old NMCA that had some fast ones.

[Ed Fitzgerald]

Skip we had a couple of oldtimers (at theFire Dept) who had 64 Chevelles with 409's in them. I always heard them called "stump pullers" up here and the question I will ask you is did you find them hard on U-joints.? The old guys said they always carried a couples of sets in the glove compartment and they could change them out along side of the road in under 20 minutes or so. Ed

[Ed Fitzgerald]

A story that was always told was that a local garage (Hutchison's) Hutchy's was where all the young lads hung out. There was all the different muscle cars and the neighbours were starting to complain to the cops. As Hutchy was well liked and fixed alot of the cops cars he was told of the complaints and to tell the lads to tone it down a bit. Well it just so happened that one of the yappier lads had a 409-4speed in a Chevelle and( after Hutchy told everyone that he was taking heat and take it easy) he decides to leave and backs out into the street nice and easy. Puts it in 1st gear and lights up the tires as he is going past the front of the garage with Hutchy watching. The other fellas there knew Hutchy was ugly but never said a word. Several days later word was out that Hutchy was mad and that he had it out for the young lad. Young lad stops in at Hutchy's and was waiting to get his ass reamed and Hutchy let on like nothing was wrong and kept working on his stock car. As the lad got closer to the lube rack Hutchy walked by him and grabbed him. Hutch was a big man with huge hands and he reached up and grabbed the air grease gun and stuck it down the back of the young lads pants into his shorts and they say he pumped about 5-6 lbs of grease into his shorts. In the end it looked like he had a diaper on. Hutchy nsays the next one of you guys to try that trick I'll put the grease gun in your mouth.... and you know the rest of the story. Ed

[Skip Fix]

I never broke a U joint ripped the ring gear bolts out on the posi pumpkin I bought that had a spacer plate and popped the spline in the two piece driveshaft-but that happened just on my morning paper route. I do think my 15 lb aluminum flywheel did cushion those 5000 side steps though.

[Ed Fitzgerald]

That's interesting Skip, thanks for the reply. I 'll have to investigate this a little further from this end to find out if it was fact or fiction. Ed

[SRR]

Originally Posted by Ed Fitzgerald

A story that was always told was that a local garage (Hutchison's) Hutchy's was where all the young lads hung out. There was all the different muscle cars and the neighbours were starting to complain to the cops. As Hutchy was well liked and fixed alot of the cops cars he was told of the complaints and to tell the lads to tone it down a bit. Well it just so happened that one of the yappier lads had a 409-4speed in a Chevelle and( after Hutchy told everyone that he was taking heat and take it easy) he decides to leave and backs out into the street nice and easy. Puts it in 1st gear and lights up the tires as he is going past the front of the garage with Hutchy watching. The other fellas there knew Hutchy was ugly but never said a word. Several days later word was out that Hutchy was mad and that he had it out for the young lad. Young lad stops in at Hutchy's and was waiting to get his ass reamed and Hutchy let on like nothing was wrong and kept working on his stock car. As the lad got closer to the lube rack Hutchy walked by him and grabbed him. Hutch was a big man with huge hands and he reached up and grabbed the air grease gun and stuck it down the back of the young lads pants into his shorts and they say he pumped about 5-6 lbs of grease into his shorts. In the end it looked like he had a diaper on. Hutchy nsays the next one of you guys to try that trick I'll put the grease gun in your mouth.... and you know the rest of the story. Ed

I almost spit my coffee all over my keyboard.

[Sirrotica]

When I was 12 YO(1965) there was a guy in our neighborhood that had a 63 Impala, 409/409HP 4 speed 4.11 gear, headers. What a nightmare those were trying to hook them up to the stock exhaust on an X frame car . The car was a street car, with glass fenders, and he had removed the front bumper. He (18-20 years old) had me go for a ride with him once, and ran it through the gears, I was absolutely astounded at the performance, however only having ridden in cars with adult drivers previously, this was a huge departure from what I was used to.

Only other time I can remember riding fast was with my father, going for a test drive after he had got done rebuilding the Rochester 4 BBL on our 57 Star Chief 347 automatic. I never saw my dad drive anything that fast before that day.

I have to say that after a few rides in that 409 Impala I was hooked on high performance. Problem is he could never keep a third member together, even with street tires. He was planning on putting a 9.3 axle from a Pontiac, or an olds under it, but he ended up trading the Impala for a 59 corvette with a 301 hybrid (327 block with a 283 crank in it, later chevy built it in house for the Z28 camaro, and called it a 302, actually 301.59 cubic inches).

That guy was my hero at that time, he used to run a body shop out of his parents garage. When I was unemployed I used to work for him part time sanding cars and doing the crap work that goes on in a body shop.

Some of the hot chevys he owned, brand new 69 Nova SS 396 4 speed, he sold that, and ended up with a 69 BB corvette that he bought wrecked, pieced it back together, bought a crate 427 and put a 671 blower on it with chrome header side pipes. Red and gold metalflake paint. Pretty impressive back in 1972, even if it was a chevy...........LOL.

He later painted my 69 GTO, black with flames, you can see it in the middle picture in my signature in the background, behind the GP race car

[Skip Fix]

The 409 truck motor blocks had a large block/combustion chamber notch to lower the compression ratio. Some were used in big trucks and even water irrigation pumps.

Now the CR of the 409/425 HP dual quad motors was listed at 11:0 but were rumored to have two steel shim gaskets when delivered to drop it a little, and to get to it to 11:0 you only used one, still never heard a real answer on that one.

[Ed Fitzgerald]

I had uncles who used to tell me that they used to take 327 blocks (4"bore) with 283 cranks and double head gaskets to get what they called a "poor man's 302" to stock car race with. i never understood the double head gasket angle as to me all it would do is drop the compression ratio. On a different note the boys used to say they would interchange chevy and ford pistons in 300 cu inch blocks and run all over each other. As i'm a lot savvier after listening to you guys I'm thinking ring lands being different may have changed the compression ratios and the rest is history. Ed