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Old 03-02-2020, 03:18 PM
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Default Starter Shims for Manual Transmission Car

My stock '74 455 keeps burning starters up. I had two shims in it back when it was an auto car and it seemed to work and sound fine. When I converted it to a 4 speed car, I kept the shims as they were with the automatic. However, I did not check the tooth clearance when I converted to a 4 speed. I can't really see the tooth engagement to check the clearance now that it is all together. The starter has always sounded raspy and louder than normal after I converted the car to a 4 speed. I have generally always ran 1 or 2 shims in all of my Pontiacs. This is my 3rd one to fail in this car in about a 5-6 year span. It is just a stock replacement starter. The problem must be in the tooth gap I am thinking. Where does everyone start out on starter shimming with a manual transmission car?

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Old 03-02-2020, 03:28 PM
bobzdar bobzdar is offline
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What's failing on the starters?

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Old 03-02-2020, 03:35 PM
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I haven't tore into any just yet but they just lock up and won't do anything when I turn the key.

The sound this one was making is hard to explain, it just sounds louder and more raspy than a stock delco starter should sound.

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Old 03-02-2020, 03:58 PM
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At the time of my 4 speed conversion I bought a Hays flywheel.
I shimmed it to death but the starter would always grind. it eventually ate my mini starter.
I learned that the ring gear was too big. it was rumored that Hays had gotten a bad batch of ring gears.
I bought a new steel flywheel from autozone.
The Hays piece was noticeably bigger.
installed the autozone piece.
Never had starter problems again.
just my experience.
hope this helps.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F ROCK View Post
At the time of my 4 speed conversion I bought a Hays flywheel.
I shimmed it to death but the starter would always grind. it eventually ate my mini starter.
I learned that the ring gear was too big. it was rumored that Hays had gotten a bad batch of ring gears.
I bought a new steel flywheel from autozone.
The Hays piece was noticeably bigger.
installed the autozone piece.
Never had starter problems again.
just my experience.
hope this helps.
Thanks for the replies.

Mine is a factory GM flywheel. Did you still have to use shims with the autozone flywheel?

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:17 PM
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Have you tried using NO shims??? Reason is, my engine builder would always keep two of the common Chevy starter nose cones on hand that had been slightly milled down (by another friend, at his machine shop). Every once in a great while a stock, shimless starter,would be TOO FAR from the flywheel/flexplate. A Pontiac COULD have similar problem...

My TA had a BUNCH of sims from the factory. Starter always sounded good. THat engine has been on a stand since 1992

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Milner View Post
Thanks for the replies.

Mine is a factory GM flywheel. Did you still have to use shims with the autozone flywheel?
yes but the usual 2 shims vs a stack of 6 or more.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:23 PM
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not related just curious; did you have your engine balanced with that flywheel?

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 77 TRASHCAN View Post
Have you tried using NO shims??? Reason is, my engine builder would always keep two of the common Chevy starter nose cones on hand that had been slightly milled down (by another friend, at his machine shop). Every once in a great while a stock, shimless starter,would be TOO FAR from the flywheel/flexplate. A Pontiac COULD have similar problem...

My TA had a BUNCH of sims from the factory. Starter always sounded good. THat engine has been on a stand since 1992
I haven't tried it without any shims yet. I have tried it with anywhere from 1 to 3 shims. All 3 sounded equally as bad. I may try the new starter without any shims and see how it does.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F ROCK View Post
not related just curious; did you have your engine balanced with that flywheel?
Thanks for your help. No I didn't have the engine balanced with this flywheel. The engine was very low mileage so I just did a cheap overhaul on it.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Milner View Post
I haven't tried it without any shims yet. I have tried it with anywhere from 1 to 3 shims. All 3 sounded equally as bad. I may try the new starter without any shims and see how it does.

Service manual shows how to see what shim is needed.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:38 PM
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Are you sure you can't get a look at the engagement? That's the quickest and easiest way to get it right the first time without guessing. With a 4 speed, take the sheet metal cover piece out and install the starter. Battery disconnected, gently pry the starter drive into mesh with the flywheel. You should be able to see this and do it with that little sheet metal cover out. With the starter fully engaged, you should be able to insert an office size paper clip unbent into the root of two engaged teeth. If it won't go add one shim at a time until it will. Start with zero shims. My experience with Pontiac stick engines is zero to 2 shims max will get it done. Now if the block has been line bored and honed a bunch of times, that changes the position of the crankshaft in the block and you may need more adjustment.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by burd View Post
Service manual shows how to see what shim is needed.
The only problem there is that there is no room to stick a paperclip or something around .030 thick to see what the gap is. I probably could if it were an automatic. There doesn't appear to be enough room with a manual transmission bellhousing.

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Old 03-02-2020, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Are you sure you can't get a look at the engagement? That's the quickest and easiest way to get it right the first time without guessing. With a 4 speed, take the sheet metal cover piece out and install the starter. Battery disconnected, gently pry the starter drive into mesh with the flywheel. You should be able to see this and do it with that little sheet metal cover out. With the starter fully engaged, you should be able to insert an office size paper clip unbent into the root of two engaged teeth. If it won't go add one shim at a time until it will. Start with zero shims. My experience with Pontiac stick engines is zero to 2 shims max will get it done. Now if the block has been line bored and honed a bunch of times, that changes the position of the crankshaft in the block and you may need more adjustment.
I'll double check tonight and see if I can get my hand in there to check the gap. It didn't look like there was enough room when I peeked at it last night. Maybe I can get it in there. I'll start with zero shims.

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Old 03-02-2020, 05:03 PM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J0NlRO--9kQ Gauge it like in this video. There is more room to get in there and it works well. Just replaced a starter on mine and the directions were the same. It came with a 1/8 inch metal rod to measure with but alot of people use a drill bit.

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Old 03-02-2020, 07:51 PM
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All the automatic cars I've worked on had starter shims.
My stock MT factory flywheel had no shims.

Not saying that's how they all are just my experience fwiw.

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Old 03-02-2020, 09:17 PM
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No shims did the trick. I never thought to leave the shims completely out. As far as room to set the starter gear gap, there doesn’t seem to be enough room to get to it on a manual transmission application.

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Old 03-02-2020, 11:45 PM
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I've never had to run starter shims on my manual trans cars. Always wondered at it but always seemed to work without.

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Old 03-22-2020, 12:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F ROCK View Post
At the time of my 4 speed conversion I bought a Hays flywheel.
I shimmed it to death but the starter would always grind. it eventually ate my mini starter.
I learned that the ring gear was too big. it was rumored that Hays had gotten a bad batch of ring gears.
I bought a new steel flywheel from autozone.
The Hays piece was noticeably bigger.
installed the autozone piece.
Never had starter problems again.
just my experience.
hope this helps.
do you have part number have same isssue

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Old 03-22-2020, 02:27 PM
cdnroundport cdnroundport is offline
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Pretty sure assembly manual says no shims for manual trans

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