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#21
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Thanks for the new info on the business.
Tom V.
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"Engineers do stuff for reasons" Tom Vaught Despite small distractions, there are those who will go Forward, Learning, Sharing Knowledge, Doing what they can to help others move forward. |
#22
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So...powersteering.com can do the fast ratio conversion, but not the 35# valves. He mentioned he could lower the pressure to get a stiffer feel.
Lee power steering scoffed at the idea and highly suggested the 35# valve upgrade for a 12:1 conversion to get the feel I'm looking for. For $750+ shipping...starting to rethink my strategy. So what about the jeep box swap again...less turns & firmer feel, but need to change the rag joint?? AGR?? Does the IROC box have the right stops? Really want less turns AND firmer feel with the correct stops without the big price tag...<sigh>
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 Last edited by vertigto; 07-25-2020 at 09:05 PM. |
#23
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IROC box does NOT have the right stops.
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#24
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Quote:
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/jeep...ring-box-swap/ https://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp...g-box-upgrade/
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"The Mustang's front end is problematic... get yourself a Firebird." - Red Forman Last edited by amcmike; 07-25-2020 at 09:57 PM. |
#25
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I was fortunate enough to score a 1986 monte ss box for 50$, removed it myself used a chevy truck rag joint tapped in Lee power steering flair adapters , no other changes works real nice
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A man who falls for everything stands for nothing. |
#26
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So I am guessing that Lee is buying up all the Monte Carlo SS boxes? Same for Hector's rebuilds?
Seems like those and the Jeeps are the easiest swap. Getting online now...
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 |
#27
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So...let me see if I understand correctly. The Jeep boxes have the 12.7:1 ratio and same stops as A bodies, but same TBar diameter as stock A body box. So no difference in firmness?
And Monte Carlo SS boxes have 12.7:1 and larger diameter TBar, but wrong stops?? Am I missing something??
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 |
#28
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The Jeep boxes have a .195 T bar and are much firmer (20-26 lbs) than the stock A body box (15-21 lbs) but not as firm as the .204 bar (24-30 lbs) found on the late 80s Monte SS, Hurst Olds, Buick GN which as you said, have a different turning radius. I can't explain why the Jeep box is firmer with the same T bar but when I changed my stock El Camino box to the Jeep box the difference in firmness was evident.
Jim Shea Steering Papers are a good read on this subject. http://jimshea.corvettefaq.com/?cat=4 Edit; As I read through the different models in Jim's papers I noticed that the early Camaros had the same effort as the early A bodies, 15-21 lbs, but are listed with a .175 T bar. Makes me wonder if the .195 A body T bar size is a misprint.
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Ed 1968 GTO (Thanks Mom) 2006 Silverado 2007 Cadillac SRX 2015 Chevy Express Last edited by OG68; 07-26-2020 at 01:34 AM. |
#29
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Yeah...that was one thing that was confusing me as I compared specs between the A bodies and other vehicles on Jim's spreadsheets.
Seems like the Jeep boxes are the closest in spec and probably the most cost effective solution, especially if there is a perceived difference in firmness.
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 |
#30
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If you care to there are a few Youtube videos out there that go through the steps on how to rebuild the Saginaw boxes. I did mine 3 years ago without too much trouble. I bought the rebuild kits from RockAuto and the kit wasn't very expensive.
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1979 Trans Am WS-6 .030 455 zero decked flat pistons 96 heads with SS valves 041 cam with Rhoads lifters 1.65 rockers RPM rods 800 Cliffs Q Jet on Holley Street Dominator ST-10 4 speed (3.42 first) w 2.73 rear gear __________________________________________________ _______________________________ 469th TFS Korat Thailand 1968-69 F-4E Muzzle 2 |
#31
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I have the same as OG. I have a Lee in my 69 el Camino I also did the suspension with SC&C stage 3. I have the Saginaw 800 14:1 I got the 30 pound valve and its heavy but so nice!! I am using the Grant 13" steering wheel.. These el Caminos have the heavy duty #1942 frame that allows them to handle so well... Seriously, I've driven high performance sports cars that could come close in the handling dept. to my suspension updated 69 el Camino and it all looks stock as the day it came off the show room floor..
I've had several boxes from Lee and every one was fantastic, I must admit this last 14:1 800 Series box built under the new ownership is just as good if not better then the older Lee boxes.. Last edited by 389; 04-25-2022 at 05:43 PM. |
#32
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So...more research and I could only find Lee and AGR that do different/upgraded torsion bars in their rebuilds. AGR is about $200 less than Lee for what appears to be a comparable product.
Lots of companies will do an exact fit quick/fast ratio box, but that's it. Prices anywhere from $145 (Cardone) to $450. So humor me...what would be the issue with buying a remanufactured steering box for a 1988-90 B-body (Caprice?) or 93-98 Grand Cherokee from Advance Auto or similar? According to Jim Shea's spreadsheets they are a 12.7:1 box with the right travel (43 deg 30 min), 0.195 diameter T-bar, and 20-26 effort for Caprice (similar for GC)? Gotta think this would be much less expensive, but guessing would need a new coupler/rag joint and the hose fittings would be metric/flared...anything else? Would the standard T-bar in these still not be firm enough? Something like this...https://shop.advanceautoparts.com/p/...6530/3790150-P. $150 less 15%. 3-3 1/2 turns to lock not enough?
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 Last edited by vertigto; 08-10-2020 at 04:29 PM. |
#33
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The issue is that the mass rebuilders don't guarantee that their box meets original specs.
You will likely get a "good" one. But you're not guaranteed to get one build "right". If they run out of the proper torsion bar...you get whatever is handy. They mis-mark a gearset, you get the wrong ratio. I looked into this years ago. The packaging says that the part inside meets all the specs for OEM, in fact they'll claim it's better in some ways. When you actually get ahold of Customer Service, they tell you that it'll fit and function, but internal parts aren't guaranteed to be "correct". So there's the risk: Dramatically lower price, you may have to install and send back several before you get one that's what you wanted to begin with. And just because YOU get one that's correct...or not correct...doesn't mean that thirty other people got what they wanted, because in the end it's a diceroll. THAT is why I bought used Grand Cherokee boxes right off the vehicles. They may be used--but at $30 each, and I have several, I'm bound to have a good one for even less than the mass-rebuilder price. The rag joint is gonna cost me the same no matter who I buy it from; which leaves only pump and hoses to dick with. Lee, I think, sells brass "seats" for the old style hoses in the new-style boxes. Supposedly, the metric threads in the new boxes are "close enough" to the SAE threads of the old style hoses that it isn't a problem when you press in their brass hose seats so the flared hoses have something to seal against. I'm more likely to use specialized fittings to convert to the aftermarket so-called "AN" (it's not really "AN", that's a long-obsolete military spec that today's parts are unlikely to meet except in the most general terms) hose ends and hoses. I can live with that. |
#34
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Considering AGR's 12:1 box (292117) w/ .210 valve. Supposedly all 'Made in America' and $200 less than Lee. 1 year warranty or 2 year if you buy their fluid to flush/fill, which is @ $75. That seems like larceny to me, but might be worth the added warranty.
Anyone have experience with AGR/boxes (thanks Steve for the info)??
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 |
#35
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No one with recent AGR experience that can vouch for their products/customer service?
Always hesitant with vendors I've not used before and without feedback...got burned in the past.
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 |
#36
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Lots of comments on the Chevelle site. Just type AGR steering in the search box
https://www.chevelles.com
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Ed 1968 GTO (Thanks Mom) 2006 Silverado 2007 Cadillac SRX 2015 Chevy Express |
#37
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Interesting read about experiences with the AGR boxes/customer service. Seems like it could be hit or miss.
Here's another player that I found...Borgeson 800 series 12.7.1 with equivalent to .210 valving feel (different valving unit build from stock) for $445 from Summit and with good reviews. Anybody tried this one? Very interesting. Ridetech raves about it on the protouring.com website and comes with a 3yr warranty. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/brg-800130
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1970 GTO (Granada Gold) - 400 / TH400 Last edited by vertigto; 08-14-2020 at 04:06 PM. |
#38
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Quote:
My box was rebuilt by Lee (the company, not me) in the early 90's. Felt AMAZING, at first. They rebuilt the pump as well, but the pump always seemed a bit off. Eventually got noisy, and replaced it with a parts store pump - worked better. Then the box started feeling sloppy, maybe 8 years (but not a lot of miles) later. I did a basic rebuild, installed new balls, etc. Don't remember why I didn't send it back, don't think I realized it was supposed to have a lifetime warranty. Anyway, after the car being mothballed for about 8 years and an LS swap, the car had its first highway trip recently and the steering feels horrible. Lots of slop, wandering on the road. I know, I need to check EVERYTHING, but not many miles since all suspension was rebuilt. Feels like the box to me.
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'73 T/A (clone). Low budget stock headed 8.3:1 455, 222/242 116lsa .443/.435 cam. FAST Sportsman EFI, 315rwhp/385rwtq on 87 octane. 13.12 @103.2, 1.91 60'. '67 Firebird [sold], ; 11.27 @ 119.61, 7.167 @ 96.07, with UD 280/280 (108LSA/ 109 ICL)solid cam. [1.537, 7.233 @93.61, 11.46 @ 115.4 w/ old UD 288/296 108 hydraulic cam] Feb '05 HPP, home-ported "16" D-ports, dished pistons (pump gas only), 3.42 gears, 275/60 DR's, 750DP, T2, full exhaust My webpage http://lnlpd.com/home |
#39
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My opinion? If it's a brand new casting and internals, you'd likely be money ahead if the quality is there.
The 40+ year old factory boxes are getting worn out. I have rebuilt them and they do well, but you can see that the internal seals are going to start failing and leaking again just like they did when they were new after 5-10 years. The more neglected ones will have hard parts clearances going south too. If I wanted a firm modern feeling box, I can't see you going wrong with that box at the price if the build quality is there. Stepping up to the more modern Delphi stuff is considerably more expensive. |
#40
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When I called Borgeson awhile back and asked about different stops the said my "suspension tie rod ends/spindle should stop it and all their boxes for A or F bodies are the same"
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Skip Fix 1978 Trans Am original owner 10.99 @ 124 pump gas 455 E heads, NO Bird ever! 1981 Black SE Trans Am stockish 6X 400ci, turbo 301 on a stand 1965 GTO 4 barrel 3 speed project 2004 GTO Pulse Red stock motor computer tune 13.43@103.4 1964 Impala SS 409/470ci 600 HP stroker project 1979 Camaro IAII Edelbrock head 500" 695 HP 10.33@132 3595lbs |
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