[PaulatFast]

Originally Posted by Greg Reid

One of the most beautiful GTOs in existence in my opinion..

I'm usually not a fan of white tops or parchment interiors. We did a nightshade 68 last year with a black top and interior, while it is a beautiful car, it pales in comparison to Stan's.

[prostreetgoat67]

hey guys, i think i have one of these cars!

i just got my PHS documentation today, opened it up and the first option says "4BBL 400 R/A". let me say now that i started life on the mopar side of the fence due to my fathers 69 charger. i had a pro street 67 gto back in '05 (hence my id) that hurricane katrina took from me while i was stationed in gulfport, ms.

i have just reciently got back into the pontiac scene when few months ago i found an ad on craigslist for a 69 gto for 2500 bucks. the ad said it ran and was matching #'s but reverse was shot in the trans. it was only 50 miles away so i called the # and ended up metting a 20 yr or so old kid at a trans shop where the car had been sitting for 6 months.
he told me he couldn't come up with the money to have the trans rebuilt and the owner of the shop was getting tired of of it sitting there so it had to go.

first impression was a tired old goat with an older blue paint job, cheap tint, cracked windshield, a fiberglass hood and center line wheels. old bondo was poping out on the bottom door corners and across the trunklid. looking inside found a ruff red interior with a ralley dash and sport wheel but the small brake pedal cought my eye. after looking under the dash we poped the hood to find the z-bar bracket still atached to the frame and a rag stuffed in the firewall hole. after letting the kid know the car could not be matching if it was once a standard he stated the motor was not origional eather. but to make this story shorter i ended up offering him $2000 and he accepted. the next day i handed him the cash and he handed me a title from texas. as the car was being loaded onto my friends flatbed one of the shops employees came out and asked the kid what he got for it, he told him and his mouth hit the floor. mabye he knew more about the car than i did at the time?

after i got it home i got it running and found the trans to be toast so i swaped another th400 into it just to make it driveable. after that i started having visions of a judge clone, so for another 1000 i found and drove home a rusty but 100% origional 69 lemans parts car with with some good black interior peices, good glass, power steering, and lots of other good parts. i've also bought a hideaway set-up and origional metal hood among other parts i wanted for my judge clone.

but after getting the phs back and seeing this post i found nessassary to share this story as i am now torn on how to restore this car. the origional motor and trans are long gone as well as all the ram air parts. but learning now how rare these ram air/non judge cars are i'm thinking it should be restored to origional anyway. what do you guys think?

[prostreetgoat67]

phs pics.. shipped 2/13/69

[prostreetgoat67]

on another note if you look at the door panel i'm also wondering why they dont have the sideways ''Y'' pattern on them??

[gto4evr]

I'd say someone recovered the door panels. You've got the two metal strips in there which is correct. Only the Custom S interior didn't have that Y pattern and that version doesn't look like what you have at all. You also have a left side door lever mounted upside down on the right door. Once you pull those door panels out I'll bet you'll see the evidence of the door panel "restoration".
The lower carpet area was probably junk, the top of the panels was probably burned brown from the TX sun and the fix probably predated or was out of budget range for the repops

[north]

Neat car, If the body is worth saving (I guess it depends how much time it spent in Texas versus how many Boston winters) I would get it back to RA 4spd. Especially with a desirable color combo like you have.

Adding hide-aways and steering and brakes would be nice. The interior is not a big deal and your dash looks nice in the picture. (red dashs dont seem to crack, just discolour)

[PaulatFast]

And by the way... YOU GOT A SCREAMIN' DEAL!

Red on red, four speed, ram air, posi and rally II's. That just described many folks dream car. Congratulations.

[prostreetgoat67]

paulatfast- thank you, i thought i got a good deal at the time, a running 69 gto for $2000?
sure. but i guess now it was an even better deal than i first thought.

north-the car is definitely restorable, i have seen worse but also seen better. the dash is cracked up, the trunk is rusty, and the tops of the rear rails underneath will need repair, floors look ok, has couple small spots and the 4speed hump has been cut out. has a couple more small rust holes , one in the drivers rocker and one by the left bottom corner of the rear window. fenders and quarters look good but i'm sure they will need work once they are stripped down. the doors and trunklid are junk, i was going to use the ones off the lemans. they are in much better shape and open and close nicely.

as far as texas goes, thats where it was last titled but the previous owner listed on it has a florida address.. it is an origional mass car. i found it right over the ri line. seems its gone to florida, then texas, and back to mass. i'm going to try and fond out as much history on it as i can. seems to me whoever ordered it new was only interested in getting all the go fast parts in a brightly colored package. no power options mabye to save weight for racing? it still has old school track bars welded to the frame.

gto4ever-i never noticed the door lever, if the panels have been recovered i must have been a long time ago. they seem aged just as much as the rest of the interior. but i will look for evidence of recovering once i get them apart.

[Greg Reid]

You got a screaming deal on that. Red on Red 4 spd even without the RA would have been a steal but you hit the jackpot.
Here's a thread for inspiration...This is the second red/red '69 RA that these guys have done...
http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...ight=red+%2769

[webfoot]

Originally Posted by prostreetgoat67

the 4speed hump has been cut out.

FWIW, the hole in the tunnel was crudely hacked out of there from the factory. The 4-spd hump is a bolt-on unit.

(mine looks like an 8-year old cut it out with a torch.)

[GTO JOHN]

prostreetgoat: Congratulations on the purchase! You did get a screaming deal on that car regardless of the body condition. I think these RA non-Juge cars are real sleepers in the hobby and on the street. Thanks for posting your car and info.

My guess is that somebody knew what they were ordering when they filled out the option sheet. RAIII, 4-spd, 3.55st, manual steering and brakes. No power robbing options. This Red car was built to go fast!

The 4-spd hole is probably factory as evidenced by my 4-spd Judge floor cutout and what others have posted here as well.

Keep us updated on the restoration!!

[north]

John,
Interesting how big the hole is cut on your Arlington car, I have had several Fremont cars and all had a much smaller hole but equally sloppy looking. My 69 GTO vert still has a pig pig tail left behind by what must have been a zip gun.

Funny how the factory never dimpled the floor pans or something for what was a reasonably popular option.

[prostreetgoat67]

i took a closer look and i think you guys are right about the 4 speed hole. sounds like it was factory cut, just has a piece is sheetmetal rivited over the hole so a b&m auto shifter could be mounted.

--on a more dissapointing note i started looking at how much the ram air parts nessassary to bring this car back to origional sell for and there's no way i can afford them. i was getting excited about bring it back to it's origional glory but so much for that. i could drop a built hemi in my fathers charger for what it would cost me to gather the right ram air parts. i saw a guy selling just a 69 r/a 3 carb for $3000, WTF!?

so not sure what i'm going to do now..i could go with my origional judge clone plan, but also could restore it cosmeticly to the right matador red/red interior and just run the drivetrain thats in it now. i ran the numbers and it now has a 72 YT 400 with an edelbrock intake, holly carb and headders. i dont know if its had any more into it but it does run good. i may just sell the car now too but only to someone who could afford to restore it to origional. any takers?

[gto4evr]

There are definitely different degrees of "going back to original". For most, buying that $880 ram air system off of ebay gets you mostly there. Depends on what you want out of the car and who you're trying to impress. Getting a numbers carb for $3k, or getting a restamp carb that does the same thing for $400 is a perfect example of that. Without the original drive train, In my opinion there's no point in going so numbers crazy on it, especially if you plan on driving it instead of sticking it in a museum. JMHO.

[GTO JOHN]

prostreet: If you can find a willing buyer and you want to sell you might try and turn a profit if you can. My guess is you really want to keep the car plus, there may not be a buyer willing to step up anyway.

My suggestion given your situation is to restore the car cosmetically correct to original. Avoid the Judge clone avenue (they made 4,725 4-spd Judges and only 1,275 4-spd RAIII GTOs) so your going backwards regarding rarity. Run the 72 YT 400 that is in it now. Maybe add the $880 RA setup to get yourself Ram Air. Maybe throw a $400 restamp carb on it if you want. Your right about the big $$$ involved to get these back to numbers correct. Restore it and drive it and enjoy it without the big $$$ spent on the drivetrain. You can always sell it later even with a non-correct engine. You can never take away the pedigree of the car.

My $.02 and I hope you can get some fun out of the car. I'd love to get my own Matador Red/Black RAIII 4-spd 3.55 hideaway car restored someday myself.

[north]

On the PHS the Ram air engine was listed as "4BBL 400 ENG" until mid January 69 when it was changed to "4BBL 400 R/A"

Worth noting that the RA engine seems to have come out late, only right around Christmas 68 (based on 38 non Judge RA PHS's) and the RAIV seems to have come out in very late February (based on 30 RA IV PHS's)

[PaulatFast]

Originally Posted by north

On the PHS the Ram air engine was listed as "4BBL 400 ENG" until mid January 69 when it was changed to "4BBL 400 R/A"

Wasn't it listed as 400 HO 4BBL V8 ENGINE?

[Bet Winner]

Originally Posted by GTO JOHN

My suggestion given your situation is to restore the car cosmetically correct to original. Avoid the Judge clone avenue. Run the 72 YT 400 that is in it now. Maybe add the $880 RA setup to get yourself Ram Air. Maybe throw a $400 restamp carb on it if you want. Your right about the big $$$ involved to get these back to numbers correct.

I started to type almost this same response. You might pass on the carb--just get a good quadrajet and be done with it. The cosmetic restoration will not be cheap.

A few years from now, you can start looking for the correct pieces to get it as correct as possible--a service replacement block, correct carb, etc.

Parts prices have not come down with the prices of the cars so finding everything will take some time and money.

[prostreetgoat67]

you all make some very good points. and winner, you are definately right about part prices not following complete cars. the more i invision what this car looked like origional the more i appreciate it for what it was. it may never be a # car again but dosen't mean it can't be just as nice and fast and enjoyable as it was when it was new, if not better. and i suppose it gives me the freedom to ad a few options i would like with out feeling guilty..(no judge pun intended.) there are more judges and even more clones out there but not so many of these. my overall intentions were to restore the car, enjoy it for a while and eventually sell it. mabye i'll sell it sooner, we'll se what happens. but for now i will plan to start the resto, get what metal work the car needs done, and if i get that far i will repaint it it's origional matador red. with it's only graphis being 2 small but dignified RAM AIR decals on the hood.

i am still considering refinshing the interior in black but is the red on red part of what makes this car unique? i already have a lot of nice black interior parts from the lemans.. and red inside and out is just a little too much red for me, but im still undecided.

[gto4evr]

Originally Posted by prostreetgoat67

i am still considering refinshing the interior in black but is the red on red part of what makes this car unique? i already have a lot of nice black interior parts from the lemans.. and red inside and out is just a little too much red for me, but im still undecided.

If red on red is too much and one has to go, my opinion is keep the guts red and paint it black, white or paladium silver. The red gut is the rarity factor. Black interiors are way more common and therefore not as eye catching, and I think nothing pops as much as a fresh, clean red interior.