[Glenn Lever]

I have been working on researching components for the future Blown Engine for my Front Engine Dragster dragster for awhile now.

Some of you may have seen the build of the firebird and the current build of the Front Engine Dragster on my web site.
Firebird build
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...c_FireBird.htm
Dragster Build
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/2010_...gster_Root.htm

The engine going into the dragster is the one that come out of the Firebird.

That engine is a stroked 400 Ram Air III Pontiac engine. (All forged bottom end 13.5:1 compression ratio, Kauffman heads, and Engle cam).

Long term plan is to put a blower on a Pontiac block in the dragster (this winter or next).

It would be great to get another Ram Air block, but I could also drill and tape for four bolt mains.

So I’m looking for people with past experience putting a blower on a Pontiac engine.

Some things I know.

I want a 400 block because of the main bearing size. I want an early block because of the additional material in the lower end of the block. I want a SCAT crank as they do their own machine work where Ohio and Eagle have it done in China.

Displacement?
Heads?
Cam?
Compression Ratio?
etc.?

I would like to see 650 to 750 HP. No bottle, and as nostalgic looking as possible.

So, I am looking for very specific recommendations based on your past experience.

I have purchased the foundation for this winters blower engine build.

It is a 1969 Pontiac 400 block never touched by a machine shop.

First step will be to get it here, pressure check and magin flux.

I would like to build it as a 1000 HP engine but tune to 750.

Parts to be purchased, Forged crank, splayed main caps, rods, forged pistons, Kauffman heads, lifter bore brace, etc.

I'll start with the crank, splayed main caps, rods and pistons.

My thinking based on the information at the bottom of this e-mail

I would really like to run BBC bearings but that forces me into a stroker crank (4.000)

So for right now, shot in the dark, I would choose (not ready to purchase)

Ohio 44003750P 4340 forged 400 3.750 stroke w/Pont Journal (2.250)
The journal could be cut down to 2.200 (BBC) and I will be looking into that. I would prefer not to do that as it opens up a lot of other possible problems.

Stock Pontiac rod and stroke are 6.625 and 3.750 1.77:1

or

Scat SCAT 4.00" Stroke, 3"(400) Main Forged Crankshaft-2.200"(BBC)Rod Journal
They also offer the same crank as a Superlight Weight Crankshaft, 4.000 stroke 2.200 BBC rod journal, but I can find no price.
rod to stroke 6.625 4.000 1.66:1

Rod to stroke of less than 1.5:1 gets to high side loads, but gives good bottom end power.

Rod to stroke of over about 1.8:1 really starts to show no real world benefit at revs a 400 CI V8 is likely to see. F1 racers uses about 2.2:1 but they also do 18,000rpm

GRP connecting rods are either billet aluminum and billet titanium.
Eagle does not offer I-beam rods for Pontiac
Carrillo does not offer Pontiac rods
I find no Pontiac application at Argo Marine. (Just the way I am, I would like to purchase from a US company anyway (I know most parts come from overseas))

Rods, if I go with the stock Pontiac journal, I have little choice because they either are not I-Beam or want a 2.200 BBC journal,
Crower Sportsman I-Beam 6.625, Pontiac journal with bushed.980 pin end.

Heads
Kauffman
74cc D-ports milled down a little complete $1900 with 310CFM Port work

Compression ratio 9 to 9.5:1, and under drive a 8-71 blower
Alcohol injection


To date this is what I have found

Crower I-Beam Rod
CRO-6625PF 6.625 Pontiac Rods (Press-Fit)

Crower Sportsman Rods are I-Beam forged from 4340 steel. Machined with the same quality as all Crower products. Standard length 6.625 Pontiac journal with bushed or press fit .980 pin ends. Their rated at 850hp+.

Oliver I-Beam Rod
OLI-P6625PONT-8 Oliver 6.625 Pont. Billet I-Beam Rods w/ARP Bolts 2.250 r.j.-.980 Pins Bushed

Oliver steel billet - custom ordered Comes in stock 6.625 length with std. bearing diameter and full floating pin or in longer lengths with 2.200 bearing diameter

I find no Carrillo Rod applications for Pontiac

Butler Performance aluminum rods are of a special alloy - available in custom lengths. They are some of the strongest and lightest rods available for high horsepower race engines BRK-CUSTOM BP Aluminum Rods

G.R.P. billet aluminum - custom ordered comes in any length, any pin size and any bearing diameter The BEST Alum. connecting rod on the market

Tomahawk, 5140 forging, I-Beam Pontiac 6.625 stock length connecting rods with 7/16" ARP 8740 thru-bolts. Average weight is 860 grms per rod.

Crank shaft
Ohio
OCR-44003750 OHIO 3.750" Stroke, 3"(400) Main Forged Crankshaft-2.250"(Pont.) Rod Journal

44003750P 4340 forged 400 3.750 stroke w/Pont Journal

44004210P 4340 forged 400 4.210 stroke w/Pont Journal

44004250P 4340 forged 400 4.250 stroke w/BBC Journal

Ohio 4340 forged 4.25 stroke with 3.00 main - BBC journal

Scat
SCA-4-400P-4000-6700-220 SCAT 4.00" Stroke, 3"(400) Main Forged Crankshaft-2.200"(BBC)Rod Journal

FORGED 4340 STANDARD WEIGHT FORGED Scat
4-400P-4000-6700-2200 4400P40010 4340 STANDARD WEIGHT 4.000" 6.700" 2.200"
Crower billet crankshafts are custom ordered in any stroke, main size and rod journal size. We can even order the in many different lightweight versions.

Heads
Kauffman
74cc D-ports milled down a little complete with 310CFM Port work

64cc High Ports complete with 365 CFM Poet work




How is that for post number one?

I have been posting on other sites and have an e-mail mailing list that I send updates to. One of those person suggested I post here. In fact his words were.

"Glenn, may I suggest you try www.performanceyears.com website for tech info. It has the most informative and accurate tech info there is for any of the Pontiac websites. A number of guys on there have dealt with blown Pontiac engines."

My responce was "Just what I need, another forum."

To which he responded
"Yup another forum, lol. Honestly tho Glenn, I don't think you'll have any regrets.The knowledge base is nothing short of phenomenal. This site is more than heads and shoulders above the rest!
Take care, Ken."

[Mo]

Do you know Paul Spotts? http://www.spottsperformance.com/

Just ran 7.13 at 191 at Norwalk in his FED. He runs a 466 with KRE dPorts 6-71 with Kinsler Alky injection. He's shooting for the 6s. He can help you with combo and is an engine builder/retailer.

PS Welcome to PY!

[Brian Baker]

I take it you are going to run methanol for fuel in this dragster? I like the look of it from your link.

Having said that I guess you're going to run a 6-71 to keep it more period correct looking. Paul Spotts dragster would be a good place to look for a combo.

The 400 block idea you have is fine, but I wouldn't be so uptight about running a shorter stroke crank, especially at the power level you want to achieve. Your block will thank you for running the shorter stroke, and frankly, for the power level you want it is not needed.

I like the 4.00" crank with 2.200" rod bearings, this will open the door for more affordable off the shelf aluminum rods. Take the bore .030" over and you have a nice 433" combo. I wouldn't even consider a steel rod, keep the reciprocating assembly as light as possible and the block will thank you later.

Heads are a toss-up, not requiring much to get the power level you want from a roots. I wouldn't even think about anything less than 10.5:1 CR with the aluminum heads if you're going to run methanol.

[Brian Baker]

Take note, PY readers!!!

http://www.leverfamilysite.com/2010_...gster_Root.htm

This is how a modern built FED should look, not like the "bar stools on wheels" that are prevalent in VRA fuel racing these days. Love the tinwork on this one, great job!

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by Mo

Do you know Paul Spotts? http://www.spottsperformance.com/

Just ran 7.13 at 191 at Norwalk in his FED. He runs a 466 with KRE dPorts 6-71 with Kinsler Alky injection. He's shooting for the 6s. He can help you with combo and is an engine builder/retailer.

PS Welcome to PY!

I do not know him, did place a call, the recording says a 2 week back log on returning calls, sent a e-mail as requested. Thanks

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

I take it you are going to run methanol for fuel in this dragster? I like the look of it from your link.

Having said that I guess you're going to run a 6-71 to keep it more period correct looking. Paul Spotts dragster would be a good place to look for a combo.

The 400 block idea you have is fine, but I wouldn't be so uptight about running a shorter stroke crank, especially at the power level you want to achieve. Your block will thank you for running the shorter stroke, and frankly, for the power level you want it is not needed.

I like the 4.00" crank with 2.200" rod bearings, this will open the door for more affordable off the shelf aluminum rods. Take the bore .030" over and you have a nice 433" combo. I wouldn't even consider a steel rod, keep the reciprocating assembly as light as possible and the block will thank you later.

Heads are a toss-up, not requiring much to get the power level you want from a roots. I wouldn't even think about anything less than 10.5:1 CR with the aluminum heads if you're going to run methanol.

Yes, the engine will be alcohal.

The gasser gang that I will be runnig with will allow an 8-71 so that is what I was going to put on it. There is not much difference in appearance (from a distance).

Are you saying the value gained by the 4.00" stroke (BBC bearings and rod choices) that that stoke is worth the sacrific in rod/stroke ratio?

I was really thinking of a good H or I beam froged steal rod over aluminun because of the lower power levels and maintenance.

Compression ration is just as hot a topic as rods. I have been told everthing from 8:1 to 13.5:1

[Brian Baker]

Well, to answer your question on the shorter stroke/aluminum rod deal, you're going to hear of more than one way to skin a cat. I'm looking at it from a block longevity point of view, and it's a commonly accepted benchmark in the Pontiac community that once you get into the 750-HP zone (and above) with a factory block, you take precautions to lessen the stress on the block to prevent it from cracking up through the mains to the cam tunnel. A shorter throw on the crank makes for less distance to "throw around" that reciprocating weight, which means less side loading on the cylinders. The shorter forged cranks that are available also come ready to go with the Chevy sized rod bearing (2.200") which affords more choices in off the shelf rods in terms of lengths available, so you can tailor your r/s ratio to your liking. I still like the idea of aluminum rods over heavier steel though.

There's no argument in the Pontiac community that a 428 makes for a well rounded combo, whether running naturally aspirated or with boost, and a .030" overbore on the 400 block with the addition of the 4" crank will essentially give you a .030" over 428. Running an 8-71 up top won't need a long arm to make power, and the factory block will be less susceptible to failure.

On the compression ratio, methanol will tolerate some compression with boost. Paul Spotts started running low compression with iron d-ports heads years ago (low compression station wagon heads - LOL) and was running mid-7's in his dragster with very little maintenance required. I think he went 3 years without even tearing the engine down to inspect bearings, etc. He's running more now, how much I don't know, but you can hear the difference.

When I was having my engine for the funny car built, I consulted several racers running in the nostalgia ranks with wedge head Chevy's what they ran for compressions and every one was at least at 11:1, with a few that were approaching 13:1 with small block Chevy's. They all recommended starting at 11:1 and learning what the engine liked and how to tune it before upping the compression, but that blown alky motors like compression with the aluminum heads. Mine ended up being around 10.78:1 after machining and gasket selection.

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

... I wouldn't even consider a steel rod, keep the reciprocating assembly as light as possible and the block will thank you later...

I agree with Brian. Not only for low mass, but for the dynamic load absorption characteristics of aluminum alloy- besides the block, the bearings and wrist pins (and the pistons' pin bores) will also thank you. This "racer's wisdom" is validated by mechanical engineers in this field- for some "scholarly" input, pick up a copy of Nov '10 Circle Track Magazine and read Jim McFarland's excellent 'Enginology' column on rods. As a teaser, I'll quote just part of one sentence: "But in any case, rods need to absorb load spikes... ".

Truth is, any decent aluminum rod will suffice at your projected power level. You'd probably laugh at the antique rods that are still alive and well in the blown-alky 400 I ran for a season and a half, at somewhere around 750 HP- M/T 2014 alloy, 3/8" cap screws, about 1962 vintage!. Many runs were at sustained 8,200 RPM. [But I cheated, using a fully counterweighted 3.75" stroke forged crank].

You're creating quite a bit of envy, Glenn, by posting all those build photos of your dragster!
Did the M/T 90 degree oil adaptor plate help you out with chassis clearance there?

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

Did the M/T 90 degree oil adaptor plate help you out with chassis clearance there?

I'm working on a similar solution for my funny car, cut on a CNC.

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

I agree with Brian. Not only for low mass, but for the dynamic load absorption characteristics of aluminum alloy- besides the block, the bearings and wrist pins (and the pistons' pin bores) will also thank you. This "racer's wisdom" is validated by mechanical engineers in this field- for some "scholarly" input, pick up a copy of Nov '10 Circle Track Magazine and read Jim McFarland's excellent 'Enginology' column on rods. As a teaser, I'll quote just part of one sentence: "But in any case, rods need to absorb load spikes... ".

Truth is, any decent aluminum rod will suffice at your projected power level. You'd probably laugh at the antique rods that are still alive and well in the blown-alky 400 I ran for a season and a half, at somewhere around 750 HP- M/T 2014 alloy, 3/8" cap screws, about 1962 vintage!. Many runs were at sustained 8,200 RPM. [But I cheated, using a fully counterweighted 3.75" stroke forged crank].

You're creating quite a bit of envy, Glenn, by posting all those build photos of your dragster!
Did the M/T 90 degree oil adaptor plate help you out with chassis clearance there?

Yes the block helped and is currently bolted to the engine. That was the only way to fit the remote lines between the engine and the frame rail. I have the best pictures of the block/rail/engine clearance attached. Thanks again!

Originally Posted by Brian Baker

Well, to answer your question on the shorter stroke/aluminum rod deal, you're going to hear of more than one way to skin a cat. I'm looking at it from a block longevity point of view, and it's a commonly accepted benchmark in the Pontiac community that once you get into the 750-HP zone (and above) with a factory block, you take precautions to lessen the stress on the block to prevent it from cracking up through the mains to the cam tunnel. A shorter throw on the crank makes for less distance to "throw around" that reciprocating weight, which means less side loading on the cylinders. The shorter forged cranks that are available also come ready to go with the Chevy sized rod bearing (2.200") which affords more choices in off the shelf rods in terms of lengths available, so you can tailor your r/s ratio to your liking. I still like the idea of aluminum rods over heavier steel though.

There's no argument in the Pontiac community that a 428 makes for a well rounded combo, whether running naturally aspirated or with boost, and a .030" overbore on the 400 block with the addition of the 4" crank will essentially give you a .030" over 428. Running an 8-71 up top won't need a long arm to make power, and the factory block will be less susceptible to failure.

On the compression ratio, methanol will tolerate some compression with boost. Paul Spotts started running low compression with iron d-ports heads years ago (low compression station wagon heads - LOL) and was running mid-7's in his dragster with very little maintenance required. I think he went 3 years without even tearing the engine down to inspect bearings, etc. He's running more now, how much I don't know, but you can hear the difference.

When I was having my engine for the funny car built, I consulted several racers running in the nostalgia ranks with wedge head Chevy's what they ran for compressions and every one was at least at 11:1, with a few that were approaching 13:1 with small block Chevy's. They all recommended starting at 11:1 and learning what the engine liked and how to tune it before upping the compression, but that blown alky motors like compression with the aluminum heads. Mine ended up being around 10.78:1 after machining and gasket selection.

The shortest stroke forged crank I find id the Ohio with the stoke stroke (3.750), the shortest forged crank I find with BBC journals is the Scat (4.000)

Deck height 10.240, stroke radius 2, rod length 6.660, and piston 1.58 rod/stroke ratio of 1.665 (above 1.5 below 1.8)

Eagle H-Beam crs-6660-3d-l19 (that is the bolt upgrade) BBC journal, .990 floating pin, 6.660 length

What Pistons (bored .30 over) would you pick? Alcohol injected 10.5:1

[BruceWilkie]

Glenn call Ohio crank and see if they plan to get more forged 3.75 cranks. When I called a few months ago they were out of stock and werent sure if they would have more. Mark L called all over to find one for his turbo project and KRE scrounged one up from someone.

There are others besides scat with the 4" stroke 3" main forged crank. Pacific Performance Racing is one of them and has them in stock.(I spoke with Ken Friday) There are other Pontiac vendors that may have 1 or more in stock but not advertised. Check with AllPontiac, Butler, Kens Speed and Machine(P-dude), KRE etc.. I know there are alot of Pontiac shops I'm failing to mention. The Pontiac shops usually make sure the pieces arent flawed before shipping and can offer you a complete customized rotating pkg that will best suit your needs. Paul Spotts would be a good pick for reasons already mentioned. If he doesnt have a crank he can certainly get you one.

I agree on aluminum rods being the best choice for your application. BME would be my preference followed by GRP. If I were to use steel I'd chose Oliver for your application.


BTW the rail looks awesome. If I have time next trip past your neighborhood I'll stop by.

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by BruceWilkie

Glenn call Ohio crank and see if they plan to get more forged 3.75 cranks. When I called a few months ago they were out of stock and werent sure if they would have more. Mark L called all over to find one for his turbo project and KRE scrounged one up from someone.

There are others besides scat with the 4" stroke 3" main forged crank. Pacific Performance Racing is one of them and has them in stock.(I spoke with Ken Friday) There are other Pontiac vendors that may have 1 or more in stock but not advertised. Check with AllPontiac, Butler, Kens Speed and Machine(P-dude), KRE etc.. I know there are alot of Pontiac shops I'm failing to mention. The Pontiac shops usually make sure the pieces arent flawed before shipping and can offer you a complete customized rotating pkg that will best suit your needs. Paul Spotts would be a good pick for reasons already mentioned. If he doesnt have a crank he can certainly get you one.

I agree on aluminum rods being the best choice for your application. BME would be my preference followed by GRP. If I were to use steel I'd chose Oliver for your application.


BTW the rail looks awesome. If I have time next trip past your neighborhood I'll stop by.

I have Jeff of KRE checking right now. I'm thinking I would like the BBC bearings though and will most likeley go with the Scat.

The dragster is in Indiana being painted right now. Fee free to stop by, but check to make sure it is here.

[Brian Baker]

I purchased my funny car pistons from Ken Keefer (aka Pontiacdude). They're made by BRC and are every bit as nice as any Ross or J&E piston I've ever bought for a Pontiac, and they're priced a little less expensive than the latter two mentioned. I also had them coated with a thermal barrier on the crowns and a dry-film lubricant barrier on the skirts, which was not that expensive, and figured the thermal barrier wouldn't hurt. Ken can better describe these pistons, I'll give him a heads up to this thread and have him weigh in on it.

[BruceWilkie]

FWIW PPR 4" stroke 3" main forged crank is available with BBC $650 or Pontiac journal size $699.

http://www.pacificperformanceracing....-rotating.html

[taff2]

I also agree on the ali rods,there's no good reason not to use them. Personally I would also go for a longer ali rod -6.8" or so to maximise the r/s ratio and further minimise stress on the block,which also means you can use a shorter,lighter piston that will put even less stress on the block. I bought a set of the BRC pistons from PDude,nice pistons for the money.
Hey Jack,talking about the M/T ali rods, I just picked up a load of Pontiac bits including a complete built 455,and in amongst all the boxes of spares were a nos set of M/T 2014 ali rods(made by Harvey aluminum)! They'll be going in a future combo along with the 3" main 455 N crank that came in this deal. How do you date these rods? There are some other casting numbers on the rods but I don't have them to hand now.
Glenn, for my current turbo combo I've used a set of Brooks B2 ali rods for a BBC,I had them cryo treated by Paul Carter(GTO Freek on these boards) at a very reasonable cost,and barring failure of other parts ,I expect them to live forever. I'm not a believer in the old theory that ali rods should be changed every 70 or so runs!
ps, I also used the 4.00" Scat crank from AllPontiac with the BBC rod journal size, much better choice of bearings for these.

[marks73ta]

As Bruce said. KRE dug up a 3.75 Ohio for me from somewhere. Like the mafia I didn't ask, heh. I'm using stock length GRP aluminums and don't expect to look back. I also feel, in a boosted combination, the rod length is not too important as long as it is not to far out of the norm. The 1.77 r/s ratio of the 6.625 rod and 3.75 I feel will be just right in the middle of too long/too short. But the valid argument of a light shorter piston with a longer rod is a consideration. But I also feel the little bit longer piston compression height may aid in a more stable piston in the bore. Not an expert there at all so let me know a good argument against that. Although too late to change anything I would still like to know what others think. Mark L

[Brian Baker]

The BME rods in my funny car (4.181" bore x 4.00" stroke) are 6.8". I'm reusing them from the nitrous motor that was in my 79 T/A "Discomobile" (4.181" bore x 4.25" stroke).

[marks73ta]

Brian, your R/S ratio will be right at 1.7 which is not too far off of mine at 1.77. But your piston Compression height and there for the piston height will be a lot shorter. Do you know what your expected RPM range will be? Mark L

[Jack Gifford]

Taff- sorry, I don't know how to date those rods.
For a build that warrants them, I've got a NOS set of M/T "Super" aluminum rods stashed away. The ones with three ribs, 7/16" cap screws, and serrated-fit caps.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by marks73ta

Brian, your R/S ratio will be right at 1.7 which is not too far off of mine at 1.77. But your piston Compression height and there for the piston height will be a lot shorter. Do you know what your expected RPM range will be? Mark L

7500 rpm through the lights, or thereabouts.