[PONTIAC DUDE]

Originally Posted by taff2

I also agree on the ali rods,there's no good reason not to use them. Personally I would also go for a longer ali rod -6.8" or so to maximise the r/s ratio and further minimise stress on the block,which also means you can use a shorter,lighter piston that will put even less stress on the block. I bought a set of the BRC pistons from PDude,nice pistons for the money.
Hey Jack,talking about the M/T ali rods, I just picked up a load of Pontiac bits including a complete built 455,and in amongst all the boxes of spares were a nos set of M/T 2014 ali rods(made by Harvey aluminum)! They'll be going in a future combo along with the 3" main 455 N crank that came in this deal. How do you date these rods? There are some other casting numbers on the rods but I don't have them to hand now.
Glenn, for my current turbo combo I've used a set of Brooks B2 ali rods for a BBC,I had them cryo treated by Paul Carter(GTO Freek on these boards) at a very reasonable cost,and barring failure of other parts ,I expect them to live forever. I'm not a believer in the old theory that ali rods should be changed every 70 or so runs!
ps, I also used the 4.00" Scat crank from AllPontiac with the BBC rod journal size, much better choice of bearings for these.

From what I understand. Brooks just went out of business. Yep the economy is improving.

[TIN TIGR]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..brc is down?...and for the record, my M/T rods have thousands of miles on them, and are still good...they are tough..i would love to find a new set, sitting on a shelf..

[Glenn Lever]

In the PY, Online > General PONTIAC TECH > Pontiac – Boost forum I started a thread called Pontiac Blower Engine Build

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...24#post4081524

All though the overall direction of that thread was a conversation on blocks, cranks, and rods. A detailed conversation is taking place offline about block strengths. That conversion was so filled with good information I thought I would share it here.

Paul Spotts has been talking with me through e-mail and I asked his permission to post those e-mails here. I will also include a number of photos he has sent me.

The e-mail that started the conversation went like this;

I have been researching components for the future Blown Engine for the dragster

So I’m looking for people with past experience putting a blower on a Pontiac engine.

Some things I know.

I would like to see 750 HP, and as nostalgic looking as possible.

I have purchased the foundation for this blower engine build.

It is a 1969 Pontiac 400 block never touched by a machine shop. ……..

His response was;

Hi Glenn

What fuel do you intend to run? What fuel system? That makes a big difference

I would use a 71-74 400 block - I am right now - they have thicker main webs - 4 bolt main caps a must

doesn't matter on crank - 4" 4.210 stroke - I have a Ohio 4.210 stroke in mine - be prepared to have the mains and rods cut to .010 - I had to

I run MGP aluminum rods - Biller miller is good as well, ran them before. For only 750-800 hp I'd run Eagle rods with arp 2000 upgrade

Don't order parts till you have the proper compression figured - you can run the KB stoker pistons and so many choices there.

I have a 63 421 4 bolt block for sale for $1500 - it has a modern starter adapter included if you’re interested

I also have a partial filled 4 bolt 67 SR block set up for solid roller $1500 as well - both blocks have factory 4 bolt caps

If you’re on a budget - you may want to consider iron d-ports - I ran them and made over 1000 hp with alky injection

Good luck with your project

Paul My response was

Thanks for your reply.

I will be running alcohol injection.

I have purchased a 1969 400 block for the build.

Current thinking is the Scat 4 inch stroke crank.

2 inch stroke radius, 6.660 rod length, 1.580 piston, 10.240 deck height, 10.5:1 compression, .35 over bore (428 displacement).

Oliver I-beam steel rods, rods are a sticking point as I do not want to have to tear down after 50 runs.

HP is low at 750, so I think I can get away with the steel rods?

Thoughts?

His response was

Sure you can use steel rods - but hardly anyone does that - I got 300 runs on my alum rods before teardown - not sure where you are getting the 50 runs. My rods are fine and I reused them on current build - plan on getting 200 more passes

On your formula - never had a 69 block with a 10.240 DH - they are usually 10.220ish after square decking - you will want the piston down the hole around .010 - .020 for alum rods. 0 deck ok on steel rods. I find it’s not worth trying to come up with your own formula but finding a 4" stroke piston and using that unless you want custom pistons and rods. I've used everything and the alky is very forgiving on parts with the right tune.

I would suggest the KB937 piston - 434 CID 4.155 bore (.035 bore - there are larger bores available as well) 4" STROKE req 6.800 rod BBC 11.5 comp W 72 CC heads - so for 10.66 would be the compression with .010 below deck and a .050 head gasket.

There is also the KB892 428 piston, but uses stock Pontiac journal and rod length

My old set up used a 4" stroke SRP piston and BME alum rods - not recommended for blown alky, but lasted longer than the cranks and blocks did! I made 1000 hp with that set up.

I also completely filled my block - would suggest the same. I broke every 69-70 block - I like the thicker mains of the newer blocks - not a common knowledge thing out there - just compare your 69 block to a 71-74 - you will see

Most important advice:

Spend the money on your fuel system and tune up. If you don't - you will ruin everything. I'm direct with Kinsler (best in my opinion) and when they set up my system I never had an issue. I rushed to get out to Norwalk and didn't have them update my system. I meant to call them and go over it, but had too much going on and was thrashing to get out to Ohio. Big mistake. All I did was switch heads (Kre 225 cfm d-ports - awesome heads) and with the new higher cfm head and different combustion chamber I was way off on the tune and I hurt the heads and melted the cometic head gaskets - I was 14 numbers off jet size and 25 psi fuel pressure too low! I can guarantee you will hurt the engine if it’s not set up by a professional - most important money spent - learned my lesson. It’s why you don't see allot of blown alky Pontiacs, and many of the ones you do hurt the engines.

I would be more then glad to build it for you as well - I've built many of them

Paul

My response was

It is my intent to build this myself at a local engine builders shop with him looking over my shoulder. I have talked with him and he is willing to do that, that includes all the machining (this is not the first engine I have put together, but the first with this horse power, and never a blower engine.

His response was

Ok on posting

Make sure every machining process is done - line hone, square decking balancing, cleaning etc etc. I deal with one of the best machine shops around this area - it took me 3 shops to find this shop and I only deal with them - extremely important. Machine shops are like body shops - there are so many iffy ones, bad ones ok ones are top notch ones. The equipment is important as well - there are crappy machines and high end ones. Most shops do not have a Pontiac torque plate, proper line hone bars, etc etc.


My response was

On the blocks, it was my understanding the 68 thru 72 were the ticker blocks?
His response was

Common misinformation - the 67's are very strong - 68-70 are ok - the 71-74 (select ones it seems) have thicker webs

Here are some pics of my build - I was going to post this on the PY board, but I'm getting very busy again

I sent him some pictures of my block, and I see you like Kauffman heads, as do I. This will be my second build using them. I have been to their shop

See the bottom of the page in this link
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_07_29.htm

Stroker build
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_08_02.htm
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_08_09.htm
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/1978_...2009_08_17.htm

First run down the track
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=guRUv...layer_embedded



I will repost the information you have passed on to me to PY with the appropriate credit, and include the pictures.

And he responded

Your block is a real 69 wt - 1969 GTO 4 speed. 063 # is engine unit number - no id on that. 69 blocks do not have id like 70's (mine)

I usually do not use GTO blocks for performance build ups - they are worth money to the restorers

If you look close on pic 7 and 8 attached you will see the mains are solid and go straight down - the 69 block is stepped back or goes thinner below the main cap area.

Those blocks tend to crack and the #2 main web

There are many slight differences in the blocks throughout the years and there were several companies casting them for Pontiac as well. I think they used 1 mold for 455's and 400's in around 1972 and machined them different with different caps. They had better machining and QC in the 70's from what I am seeing.


My response was

Only picture #8 was attached.

So I should resale this block and look for another?

What should I look for?

In an earlier e-mail you stated

I have a 63 421 4 bolt block for sale for $1500 - it has a modern starter adapter included if you’re interested

I also have a partial filled 4 bolt 67 SR block set up for solid roller $1500 as well - both blocks have factory 4 bolt caps

But the gustiest of these past e-mails is that “the 71-74 (select ones it seems) have thicker webs”

[Glenn Lever]

Some addtional photos he sent

[Brian Baker]

In looking at the photo's of your FED buildup, and looking at Paul's photo's (as well as my own setup on my funny car), I have to say the way you are mounting the front motor plate to the timing cover using the water pump bolts is not an optimal arrangement, even with two of those bolts passing through the timing cover to the block.

What you are doing by attaching the plate via the water pump bolts is effectively making the timing cover itself a stressed member between the block and the chassis. Cast aluminum timing covers, even the aftermarket ones available, aren't strong enough for this type of duty in my opinion...especially when you're adding a roots blower into the equation. Mike Cooper's car is mounted up in this fashion (at least it was last year, it may have changed since but I didn't get to see it this year at Norwalk) and he has had more than his fair share of blower drive issues, and I believe part of the reason is the cast cover being a stressed member. Tom Vaught even reported he was having issues this year at Norwalk with a crank snout support on the front of the engine either breaking or not functioning properly, and if he still has his front plate mounted to the water pump bolts, I'd say that is definately a contribuitng factor to his issues.

My advice would be to fashion another plate and sandwich it between the block and the timing cover, this way you'll be able to utilize all of the timing cover bolts and you won't be creating a stressed member out of the timing cover. A 1/4" plate will do fine, and won't screw up your geometry with the hub or the blower drive, you'll just have to address the gasket area where the bottom of the timing cover meets the pan, which is no big ordeal.

[Glenn Lever]

Many of you may have heard that some Pontiac blocks are stronger than others.

I found a lot of misinformation on that on the web.

General thinking is that earlier blocks have more material in the main webing than later blocks.

Please see the attached pictures. You have to look hard but the main that is under cut id from a GTO 1969 block. (Under cut main.jpg)

The one that is not is a 1970 Ram Air III block. (Img 4163.jpg and Img 4164.jpg)

I have also included a photo that Paul Spotts sent to me to show me what to look for. (Main is not under cut 002.jpg)

[taff2]

The early blocks also have a longitudinal strengthening rib on the one side,this is my '59 2 bolt 389 block. The drawback is the need for an adapter to fit the block to a TH350/400 trans. The notches you see in the rib are not standard,I ground them to clear the big ali rods I'm using.

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by taff2

The early blocks also have a longitudinal strengthening rib on the one side,this is my '59 2 bolt 389 block. The drawback is the need for an adapter to fit the block to a TH350/400 trans. The notches you see in the rib are not standard,I ground them to clear the big ali rods I'm using.

This is good information and would be great to have it in a place the general Pontiac public would have access to it.

[Glenn Lever]

A Pontiac 400 block has been purchased.

It is a Ram Air III 1970 400 block (four bolt main). The main journals have not been under cut and the oil pan rail is the full thickness with no undercutting. Billet steel caps and lifter valve brace have been purchased.

I dropped it off at the machine shop for pressure check and if everything turns out OK, the plan is to go ahead with the machining.

We would like to keep the bore as stock as possible but there is a ridge in the cylinder and hoping to keep the bore to 4.20 with a stroke of 4 inches (428 displacement, looking for 750 to 800 HP).

Ok, here is the question. While at the machine shop I was told, by a good friend, that there is a 8-71 Little Field, retro, pie cut, blower with strips, and high helix available. Ok is this a good match to the engine build?
There is also a Bird injector available.

I have e-mailed this question to Spud Miller, but would like input from this board as well.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by taff2

The early blocks also have a longitudinal strengthening rib on the one side,this is my '59 2 bolt 389 block. The drawback is the need for an adapter to fit the block to a TH350/400 trans. The notches you see in the rib are not standard,I ground them to clear the big ali rods I'm using.

I would think that your 389 block could handle some serious HP, Taff2.

Tom Vaught

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Glenn Lever

Ok, here is the question. While at the machine shop I was told, by a good friend, that there is a 8-71 Little Field, retro, pie cut, blower with strips, and high helix available. Ok is this a good match to the engine build?

There is also a Bird injector available.

I have e-mailed this question to Spud Miller, but would like input from this board as well.

I'll say! That's a lot of blower for a 400-430 cubic inch engine where you only want to make 800-HP on alcohol...but that's ok, you just won't have to spin it as hard.

For your combo, I wouldn't go with the high helix rotors...seems like an expense that you don't need for the power level desired.

Enderle makes a "retro' style" 3-rib bird injector that resembles the injectors of old that would look right at home on that dragster.

[Jack Gifford]

I wouldn't even go with stripped rotors at that level. Think zero-maintenance blower...

[taff2]

I'm hoping so Tom! I'm with Jack on the stripped rotors,besides the low maintenance a non stripped blower is much easier to spin and should consume less HP to drive it. Taff.

[Glenn Lever]

That was just the configuration of the used blower that was on the market. The guy selling the unit has had second thoughts and is "retinking the deal".

My thinking was to let the strips wear a little and under drive it. For the money it was a great deal.

Looks like I am still looking.

If he does decide to sell it at a good price I will purchase it.

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by Glenn Lever

That was just the configuration of the used blower that was on the market. The guy selling the unit has had second thoughts and is "retinking the deal".

My thinking was to let the strips wear a little and under drive it. For the money it was a great deal.

Looks like I am still looking.

If he does decide to sell it at a good price I will purchase it.

Oh, well...you didn't say that (LOL). I was thinking new blower. If you can get a used one like that for a good price, why not? That's why I went with a 14...$1370 delivered to my door from California vs. $1800 + shipping for a good used 8.

[Steve Barcak]

Glenn,
The strongest of the production blocks is the '58-'60 models. The '59 and '60s use the more common 3" mains. They average about 8-10 pounds heavier and are the best choice. Another big bonus using this block with a digger/funny/altered is the distance from the cam centerline to the machined surface where the oil filter housing mounts is shorter. This gives more room for your oil lines. I use these blocks on my AA/Fueler. These early blocks use a slightly different bellhousing pattern but, that is not a big deal using a motor plate.
Something to think about.

[Glenn Lever]

Well today started out bad but got better.

The dragster was supposed to make it's trip home this Friday, but will be delayed as the paint is not right yet. The season is over so the decission has been made to remove the deadline so that the paint can be completed with out pressure.

The 1970 Ram Air III block had some rust in the cylinders. There was some concern that there would be pitting. The block was cleaned and put in the hone machine (with out pressure checking) the cylinders were just honed to knock off the surface rust. Once that was done the worst cylinder measured 4.123. Pitting was visable, but the general consenses is, that will be removed when bored 20 to 30 over. This is really good news as this is the second block purchased for this project and was purchased 350 miles from here.

This evening the "deal" on the blower was agreed upon and on Thursday night I will be picking up the 8-71 Little Field, retro, High helix, pie cut, stripped, coated for alcohal, blower, with the plate, hat, injectors, distrubution block, barrel valve. The only things not included are the belt, snout, intake, pump, pulleys

All in all a bad day turned into a good day.

The block will be pressure check in the morning and if all goes well the machine work will start.

[Mo]

No Hardblock?

From what I understand it should be done before machining.

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by Mo

No Hardblock?

From what I understand it should be done before machining.

That i did not know and will ask in the morning. the intent is to either half fill or fill completely depending on what I do with the cooling. The decesion on the water pump (weather to have one or not) has not been made yet.

[Glenn Lever]

Originally Posted by Mo

No Hardblock?

From what I understand it should be done before machining.

Machine shop says after line bore, before honing.

Work has continued.

I have purchased and we are currently line boring Pro-Gram billet steel main and end caps. We found that the center caps fit great, but that the holes for the dowels on the end caps were too large and did not provide the "fitment" needed to center the end caps. The holes in the caps are larger than .313. We will be putting the block into the mill to enlarge the bowel holes in the block to fit oversized dowels. That should happen later this week.

On another front, I am looking into intake manifolds. I believe that there is only one manufacture at this point (BDS-8607) which can be purchased through RBS Superchargers for $525 (Good Vibrations has it for $548) but is only 2.6 inches tall. NHRA requires a burst panel and I am afraid with the 2.6 inch height there will not be enough room to weld in a burst panel.

What are you guys using for intakes and burst panels?

I have belatedly started a web page on this engine build. I know I have left information out and will add it as I remember and will keep it updated hence forth. It can be found at this link.

http://www.leverfamilysite.com/Blowe...2010_10_05.htm