[jdw_poncho]

Hi Ed
I know you've seen my cam spec's before so I dont need to post them. But my e-headed engine with a victor port-match only intake, and heads that I was told only flowed around 320-325cfm and 1.65 rockers made 1300+hp at 4300 rpm's. Im positive I would have made close to 1700 had I not hurt the heads. I was hoping for much more though..
Even if you heads flow less than the 367cfm Im sure it will make the power. Keep in mind my headers are 1.75" tubes and my turbo's are T4 housings and only 78mm inlet on 507ci.

I will dyno my engine N/A next time just to get a comparison. But my new heads flow 400cfm so Im hopefull it makes 700hp+ with no boost. Good luck, hope to see some dyno runs soon.

BTW, I still have a empty seat for drag week. But it wont have the tt engine in it.... boring...LOL

[Tom Vaught]

Agree JDW_Poncho, Another example would be Marty Palbykin with a 240 cfm cast iron head making 1400 lbs/ft of torque at ~4500 rpm and around 1400 horsepower at max rpm before he went to the e-heads. It is all about mass flow thru the engine not necessarily just cfm at a given point.

With a turbo, you need to pay attention to the boost ratio. How much boost vs how much turbine pressure. If the inlet system is too small the engine will make great power and then go flat on any additional power. If the exhaust system is too restrictive you will choke off additional power the engine could have made. You want both sides to be "Happy, Happy, Happy" as Phil Robertson (Duck Commander) often says.

You guys are in the very early state of ASSUMPTIONS. (Everyone has one) One piece of DATA is worth 1000 times what one assumption is worth.

No one hits it exactly right on the first go thru. They might hit it right more often with many years of experience in boosting (but I still make changes constantly at work to fine tune stuff). If you are not willing to change stuff you are stuck at a point in time.

JME

Tom Vaught

[johnta1]

Any theories as to why my 535cid RA-V engine isn’t making the expected NA power ?

This information would be invaluable in helping me determine next steps.

Do you want a N/A engine or a turbo engine?

I would think a turbo engine setup would NOT make as much HP as a N/A combo alone?

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by johnta1

Do you want a N/A engine or a turbo engine?

I would think a turbo engine setup would NOT make as much HP as a N/A combo alone?

What I paid for was a top dollar McCarty/BES EFI injected twin turbo crate engine. I think the answer to your question is obvious.

The turbos were sized by Turbonetics based on the expected NA numbers. We’re 90hp off. With all the experts involved in this build, I think asking where the 90HP might have been lost is a fair question. Is it as simple as the cam is too small for this size engine or something else?

[johnta1]

I can tell you that a cam setup for a turbo will definitely not make as much HP as a N/A engine.
(let alone the CR and other parameters)

I don't see how having a set amount of HP N/A matters compared to what the turbo setup will make?

Now if you/they had dyno'd it with the twin turbos and it 's HP was only 1000HP or something, then I'd be bitchin.

[charlie66]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I can tell you that a cam setup for a turbo will definitely not make as much HP as a N/A engine.
(let alone the CR and other parameters)

I don't see how having a set amount of HP N/A matters compared to what the turbo setup will make?

Now if you/they had dyno'd it with the twin turbos and it 's HP was only 1000HP or something, then I'd be bitchin.

X2....

[David Holmberg]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I can tell you that a cam setup for a turbo will definitely not make as much HP as a N/A engine.
(let alone the CR and other parameters)

I don't see how having a set amount of HP N/A matters compared to what the turbo setup will make?

Now if you/they had dyno'd it with the twin turbos and it 's HP was only 1000HP or something, then I'd be bitchin.

X3..

[Tom Vaught]

Ok, I will take the blame, Ed, Dave Austin asked me what the Aluminum RAV head might flow at .700 lift and I said I thought it possibly could flow 400 cfm, maybe more with more lift.

So he takes the number, multiplies by 2 and gets 800 hp and subtracts 50 HP (if you didn't have the right camshaft or the numbers are off a bit), so his NA HP starts at 750.

But you don't have a 400 cfm head, You don't even have a 367 cfm head actually on the engine because of your valve lash and rocker arm deflection. You say that at .600 lift the head flowed 349 cfm. So I will give you 358 cfm before the lash taken out and the deflection. In reality, on the dyno you probably had a true 350 cfm head. 350 X 2 = 700 hp with the right camshaft and compression ratio.

But you do not have the typical compression ratio the NA engine would have so we subtract 4% for the lower compression ratio. Now your projected number is 672 hp.

You made 660 Horsepower on the dyno. With-in 10 hp of normal Engineering Assumptions using real camshaft lift projections and real cylinder head flow numbers vs the 400 cfm head numbers I gave Dave. Blame me. I assumed that you would have a better head on the engine. The cam might be costing you 10 hp. You are expecting an unrealistic HP number NA for what you actually tested with on the dyno.

Tom Vaught

ps I have hit with-in 10 HP on several dyno "What Ifs" people have posted on the board.

[J.C.you]

Ed, any flow numbers with intake and carb attached? Considered another intake?

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by jdw_poncho

Hi Ed
I know you've seen my cam spec's before so I dont need to post them. But my e-headed engine with a victor port-match only intake, and heads that I was told only flowed around 320-325cfm and 1.65 rockers made 1300+hp at 4300 rpm's. Im positive I would have made close to 1700 had I not hurt the heads. I was hoping for much more though..
Even if you heads flow less than the 367cfm Im sure it will make the power. Keep in mind my headers are 1.75" tubes and my turbo's are T4 housings and only 78mm inlet on 507ci.

I will dyno my engine N/A next time just to get a comparison. But my new heads flow 400cfm so Im hopefull it makes 700hp+ with no boost. Good luck, hope to see some dyno runs soon.

BTW, I still have a empty seat for drag week. But it wont have the tt engine in it.... boring...LOL

400CFM at what lift? You cam had a bit more duration "14 degrees on intake and 10 on exhaust and you have smaller displacement engine.
Do you have to drive on the street to participate in dragweek? Are you going to change your valve springs when driving between the various race tracks?

No functioning TT for dragweek? Can we at least put 2 in the trunk?

[67'7F6'Bird]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I can tell you that a cam setup for a turbo will definitely not make as much HP as a N/A engine.
(let alone the CR and other parameters)

I don't see how having a set amount of HP N/A matters compared to what the turbo setup will make?

Now if you/they had dyno'd it with the twin turbos and it 's HP was only 1000HP or something, then I'd be bitchin.

So Lynn McCarty with over 30 Years as an SS Racer, Head Designer, and whatever else accomplishments, states the Engine NA should be 750 Horse minimum, Head flow after 2500.00 dollar port job should be over 400 CFM, (600.00 dollar Intake Manifold Port Job - Did anyone see those Pictures?). Neither occurred and after enough money spent to buy a small home, then said engine received with all previous supporting photos of Poor workmanship and non-attention to detail, then answers need to be explained. How can this vendor get away with this and not help resolve this by offering ZERO Customer Support.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

Ed, any flow numbers with intake and carb attached? Considered another intake?

None... I was going to purchase one of Lynn's tunnel rams with his 1K crate engine rebate, but no rebate, no tunnel ram.

Any updates on your 620 RA-V project? What size valves are you running and do you know what your rocker stud spacing is?

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Do you have to drive on the street to participate in dragweek?

Are you going to change your valve springs when driving between the various race tracks?

No functioning TT for dragweek? Can we at least put 2 in the trunk?

You have to drive to the different track locations ON THE STREET with functioning turn signals, brake lights, headlights, etc. In years past you could bring along one "alternate driver" to drive on the street and help maintain the race car. You were also allowed to tow a small trailer with your race car to carry slicks, and mechanics tools.

Most guys do not change valve springs, they put a lower ratio rocker system on the car for driving between tracks, (like a 1.3 ratio rocker arm). Turbos will see very little mass flow with a 1.3 rocker ratio so will be happy on the road.

Tom Vaught

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by johnta1

I can tell you that a cam setup for a turbo will definitely not make as much HP as a N/A engine.
(let alone the CR and other parameters)

I don't see how having a set amount of HP N/A matters compared to what the turbo setup will make?

Now if you/they had dyno'd it with the twin turbos and it 's HP was only 1000HP or something, then I'd be bitchin.

X4...

I agree on the NA vs. turbo cam HP numbers.

The engine with Holley Dominator EFI “tuned by Holley engineers” and turbos was supposed to be dyno tuned before being shipped to me.

[charlie66]

At this point the heads flow what they flow.Fix the important things and put it back together and see what she does.

I think its going to be an ANIMAL!

My 4 cyl head flowed 325cfm @ 600 my max lift is 582 and its making 700+ hp. If my 4 cyl 198ci can do that i think your V8 535 will make 1600+. Worst comes to worst , turn up the boost some.

I love what you're doing and whish you the best of luck. I can't wait to see what it makes. What ever it makes ,it will me more then most....

Good luck......

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

X4...

I agree on the NA vs. turbo cam HP numbers.

turbos was supposed to be dyno tuned before being shipped to me.

Who told you that Ed?

That is an interesting comment.

Tom Vaught

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

400CFM at what lift? You cam had a bit more duration "14 degrees on intake and 10 on exhaust and you have smaller displacement engine.
Do you have to drive on the street to participate in dragweek? Are you going to change your valve springs when driving between the various race tracks?

No functioning TT for dragweek? Can we at least put 2 in the trunk?

367 @ .600
404 @ .700

Im no cam expert so Im not sure how that duration will affect HP. But your right, your engine has a smaller less aggresive cam for the street. If it was built for racing Im positive you wouldnt have had a small cam.

Hell no Im not changing valve springs...... thats just because Im not taking it.

My little motor might now handle the extra weight with them sitting in the trunk.

Just looking for anything positive about your project that I can find. Hope to see it on the street next year.

[jdw_poncho]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

You have to drive to the different track locations ON THE STREET with functioning turn signals, brake lights, headlights, etc. In years past you could bring along one "alternate driver" to drive on the street and help maintain the race car. You were also allowed to tow a small trailer with your race car to carry slicks, and mechanics tools.

Most guys do not change valve springs, they put a lower ratio rocker system on the car for driving between tracks, (like a 1.3 ratio rocker arm). Turbos will see very little mass flow with a 1.3 rocker ratio so will be happy on the road.

Tom Vaught

Holy smokes, I didnt even think about changing the rockers! Sadly I wont get to test my TT build for it this year. If I dont get off the computer I wont even have the car ready with a n/a motor.

Maybe Ed and I can meet up with our TT cars next year at D/W.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by Tom Vaught

Who told you that Ed?

That is an interesting comment.

Tom Vaught

Let me clarify that: The engine was supposed to be run on a dyno with functioning EFI and turbos. I don’t believe this would have included changing turbo housings.

[RAIV-Z]

Originally Posted by RAIV-Z

Welcome Joey, all I ask is you keep it factual, professional and try to be specific, using generalities like “after reading all of his other outlandish posts”. If I posted something outlandish or incorrect I’d be happy to either clarify my point or correct it.



Per our phone conversation on 4/4/2012 and text message on 4/10/2012 you stated you didn’t have valve covers or even a head with the right bolt pattern. ALL of the mockup pictures you and Lynn sent of the headers being built at your shop are missing valve covers. You also stated you’d work with me to resolve the issue. I said I’d have my fab guy take a look to see what could be done once the engine was in the car and get back to you.
Would you like me to post all of the pictures?
Did you guys just happen to take them off every time you decided to take a picture?
How did you install ALL of the header bolts if the bolt pattern on the heads you had was wrong?
Just about all turbo headers I’ve seen are at least somewhat symmetrical indicating that some though was put into the actual design, this doesn’t seem to be the case here as 1 header physically fits with regards to the tall valve cover. It does have issues with flange vs. header bolt hole alignment, wrench clearance and the ability to easily install header bolts. ie: Due to clearance issues with some of the tubes, you can’t just push a header bolt through the flange.
I have only taken my car to only one chassis shop, so far the work they have done is outstanding.
Yes, Lynn provided you with his mockup 69 firebird, I provided you with radiator dimensions, turbos, waste gates, blow off valves, intercoolers, and engine front/mid plates.
If I’m not mistaken, all turbo header example pictures I sent have aftermarket valve covers.

Can you explain how you could have mocked up the turbos, then after building the headers and moving on to the transition pipe w\waste gate I get a call saying the turbo’s don’t fit where you though they would, yet I was still charged for 7 hours?
From your invoice dated 8/10/2011: “mock up of turbos, core support, timing cover, front motorplate, research of turbo mounting, air filter etc...”

I’ll cover the EGT bungs and transition pipe in detail later if you’d like.



The actual text message asking for a replacement flange was sent on 5/9. The address sent to you on 7/24@3:15pm was correct.
3 months to get a header flange…



Please make sure your facts are correct with regards to the primary tube diameter. I was told by Lynn that the exhaust ports were already opened up to 2”, Tony did not want to use a smaller tube.



You stated you didn’t have a head with the correct bolt spacing, how did you install all the header bolts? That picture Lynn posted with the headers on my engine might have had 2 or 3 bolts installed.



You might want to re-read the last few pages and pay particular attention the pictures.

Did I miss anything Joey ""jerzfabguy\IndyCartel"" or did you happen to look at a few of the pictures?