[GTO-relic]

https://www.youtube.com/clip/UgkxBls...WBv85omkFkbCTQ

click link above, then click watch full video at bottom of picture of video, it will play the entire Pontiac engine section

perhaps this has been posted already, but it's not often you see a Pontiac aftermarket block/head combo flowing 510cfm intake at a major ICE performance industries workshop presentation. by the looks of the rocker system, angled pushrods, and 570" I'm assuming this was an IA block, Tiger head combo, made around 1250HP on the dyno. but it's hard to tell by the light vague slide pictures. they added a plate across the valve cover rails on the intake side, to raise the port higher, and used a 351 Cleveland valve cover.

or is it Edelbrock Pro Port CNC heads on a Kaufman MR1 block ? can't tell

[mgarblik]

Darin Morgan is among the Elite cylinder head experts still working in the field. I have learned allot attending numerous seminars he either headlined or participated in. He was helpful to me personally on two projects. 1. He was very respectful of Arnie Beswick's lifetime achievements and tried his best to secure some old Pro Stock castings for the Tameless Tiger. 2 . I dragged one of our Billet Ram Air V prototype heads along with blue prints and data to a Darin Morgan seminar. He spent about 1/2 hour one on one going through numerous aspects of our design, pointing out areas of improvement, things to consider, areas to test on the flow bench and other insights. Once he got over the fact that we were 100% committed to the Pontiac platform, he was extremely helpful and supportive. He initially had the "Why would you try to race this thing with one hand tied behind your back attitude?. But he eventually understood the importance of maintaining the "Pontiac" heritage. Highly recommend attending one of his seminars if your primary interest is cylinder heads/air flow.

[PAUL K]

I didn't watch the video but it sounds like your describing John Langer's heads.... They're called CV'juans. Baddest Pontiac head on the planet.

[GTO-relic]

it sure looks, sounds like a JL combination, but who knows for sure.
there was more than just one of those engines built for people.

[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

Darin Morgan is among the Elite cylinder head experts still working in the field. I have learned allot attending numerous seminars he either headlined or participated in. He was helpful to me personally on two projects. 1. He was very respectful of Arnie Beswick's lifetime achievements and tried his best to secure some old Pro Stock castings for the Tameless Tiger. 2 . I dragged one of our Billet Ram Air V prototype heads along with blue prints and data to a Darin Morgan seminar. He spent about 1/2 hour one on one going through numerous aspects of our design, pointing out areas of improvement, things to consider, areas to test on the flow bench and other insights. Once he got over the fact that we were 100% committed to the Pontiac platform, he was extremely helpful and supportive. He initially had the "Why would you try to race this thing with one hand tied behind your back attitude?. But he eventually understood the importance of maintaining the "Pontiac" heritage. Highly recommend attending one of his seminars if your primary interest is cylinder heads/air flow.

interesting...what pro stock castings was he trying to obtain, RA V heads ? they were raced in early 1970's in Pro Stock.
or were they trying to find early BBC castings ?
elaborate on what he said about your RA V billet prototypes ?

[Stan Weiss]

Have not had time to watch the video yet.

Highest HP NA ponchos
https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...d.php?t=861888

Stan

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

interesting...what pro stock castings was he trying to obtain, RA V heads ? they were raced in early 1970's in Pro Stock.
or were they trying to find early BBC castings ?
elaborate on what he said about your RA V billet prototypes ?

To answer your questions: The heads I was desperately trying to find for Annie were the very early Pro Stock BBC based heads completely re-engineered by Pontiac and generically referred to as "Big Chief" heads. What some people don't realize is the basic BBC heads were so extensively modified and improved by Pontiac that they made at least 6 different versions and different castings. None were directly compatible or interchangeable and different intake manifolds, every part of the valve train and the headers were different between versions. The heads Arnie needed were called the "396" castings. Nearly impossible to find. Darin Morgan thought he knew where a few sets were and expended considerable time trying to get a set for Arnie.

With our nitro Ram Air V heads, I had a rapid prototype in plastic and he suggested using 1/2 a dozen different size and shape tubes for the pushrods on the flow bench. To prove the large tube we needed to run a 1/2" pushrod through the center of the port would hurt the flow much less than anticipated. At peak the max flow between no tube and a 9/16" tube was right at 20 CFM on a 430 CFM port. He also gave us some pointers as how much to raise the exhaust port and shape the areas around the guides and the 5 angles for the intake seat and radius for the exhaust. We also reduced the exhaust valve size slightly on his recommendation. Little stuff like that. Back to topic. Sorry if derailed.

[ponjohn]

Didn't Darin recently make a statement about the tunnel port design being flawed?

[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by ponjohn

Didn't Darin recently make a statement about the tunnel port design being flawed?

let's face it any 1960's head and port design is flawed, just some are less flawed than others. even the vaunted 426 Hemi is flawed. truthfully, the naturally aspirated V8 engine is flawed, for that matter. it's loaded with design compromises. the intake and exhaust flows both ways the whole time it's running. it takes a supercharger, or turbo to patch the big holes in the way a NA engine breathes, because it runs in spite of itself. that's why so many newer 4 cyl, 6 cyl engines are using turbos now.
back in the 1940's practically every military fighter, bomber used turbos or blowers. they wouldn't be caught off the ground without it, or they'd get shot down in flames. it seems like the car engines are moving in that direction today as well.
the tunnel port did a great job competing against, the beating the Hemis on many occasions. it also won Lemans in France. it's arguably the best inline valve wedge head ever used on a V8.

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by mgarblik

very early Pro Stock BBC based heads completely re-engineered by Pontiac and generically referred to as "Big Chief" heads. What some people don't realize is the basic BBC heads were so extensively modified and improved by Pontiac that they made at
least 6 different versions and different castings. None were directly compatible or interchangeable and different intake manifolds, every part of the valve train and the headers were different between versions. The heads Arnie needed were called
the "396" castings. Nearly impossible to find. Darin Morgan
thought he knew where a few sets were and expended.
considerable time trying to get a set for Arnie.

.

This is a link for anyone wanting to see what the Pontiac Pro Stock heads looked like.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/JJ4...ibextid=oFDknk

Kinda funny Pontiac had to make the Chevrolet head "right" for them. By today's standards they are valve lift limited and weak in the rocker arm mounting area.... Still capable of making a 1k plus naturally aspirated pretty easily. I remember these three versions:

427 head 460cc runner 18 degree
386 head 365cc runner 15 degree
385 head 420 cc runner 15 degree

I'm not familiar with the "396" but I'm thinking maybe the other three versions had the standard port locations but were similar to the above.

Pretty confident the engine Darin mentions in his video uses CV-juans

[GTO-relic]

correction:
the gentleman presenting the Pontiac engine specs in the video clip is PRESTON MOSHER, Manager of cylinder head dept. at BES Racing Engines.
the engine was a Pontiac he did at BES and perfected over years.

Darin Morgan started the presentation, then handed it of to Preston Mosher.

[GTO-relic]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Pretty confident the engine Darin mentions in his video uses CV-juans

good guess, but it's not. However I looked up Juan and he's considered among the best, or the best by some.

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

let's face it any 1960's head and port design is flawed, just some are less flawed than others. even the vaunted 426 Hemi is flawed. truthfully, the naturally aspirated V8 engine is flawed, for that matter. it's loaded with design compromises. the intake and exhaust flows both ways the whole time it's running. it takes a supercharger, or turbo to patch the big holes in the way a NA engine breathes, because it runs in spite of itself. that's why so many newer 4 cyl, 6 cyl engines are using turbos now.
back in the 1940's practically every military fighter, bomber used turbos or blowers. they wouldn't be caught off the ground without it, or they'd get shot down in flames. it seems like the car engines are moving in that direction today as well.
the tunnel port did a great job competing against, the beating the Hemis on many occasions. it also won Lemans in France. it's arguably the best inline valve wedge head ever used on a V8.

Darin's statement was much more polarized than "flawed". I could not find the exact statement so I mentioned it as a benign statement.

[mgarblik]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

This is a link for anyone wanting to see what the Pontiac Pro Stock heads looked like.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/JJ4...ibextid=oFDknk

Kinda funny Pontiac had to make the Chevrolet head "right" for them. By today's standards they are valve lift limited and weak in the rocker arm mounting area.... Still capable of making a 1k plus naturally aspirated pretty easily. I remember these three versions:

427 head 460cc runner 18 degree
386 head 365cc runner 15 degree
385 head 420 cc runner 15 degree

I'm not familiar with the "396" but I'm thinking maybe the other three versions had the standard port locations but were similar to the above.

Pretty confident the engine Darin mentions in his video uses CV-juans

Thanks Paul for the brain jog. I think the castings were the 386 castings that Arnie needed. It's been over a decade and I probably had 396 on the brain from that sorry Chebbie engine. Anyway, they are as rare as hen's teeth and any ones you find are complete junk now and probably not usable. Every head Arnie had was welded and repaired multiple times in the rocker stud area. He ran individual Jesel stand rockers. The angles were so severe, the stands so weak, we had welds, roll pins, heli-coils, time certs, you name it trying to keep the valve train usable for him. Water leaks everywhere. They were a mess. At least the Pontiac engineers found a way to make that junk flow some air. Chevy had 40 years to do something with all that real estate in those heads. It took Pontiac engineers about 6 months to move them to a whole new level! Just think what Pontiac could have done if Mother GM would have given them a little money?

[Stan Weiss]

386 Head thread with a few pictures

https://www.yellowbullet.com/threads...0-cui.2649751/

Stan

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by GTO-relic

good guess, but it's not. However I looked up Juan and he's considered among the best, or the best by some.

Not talking about Juan Mendoza

CV-juans are the fastest NA Pontiac heads on the planet.
So what heads are they?

[Stan Weiss]

John posted this is Sept 2022. From link I posted above.

1298/914 with break in oil
7.54@181 at 2800 pounds with an auto trans
7.66@179 at 3010 pounds with a clutch last weekend in Indy
With the weight out (2800 pounds) with the clutch in the fall in east coast air, it will go 7.30’s on a small tire.

Stan

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by Stan Weiss

John posted this is Sept 2022. From link I posted above.

1298/914 with break in oil
7.54@181 at 2800 pounds with an auto trans
7.66@179 at 3010 pounds with a clutch last weekend in Indy
With the weight out (2800 pounds) with the clutch in the fall in east coast air, it will go 7.30’s on a small tire.

Stan

I might be missing part of the video but the one I see from the link states they are Tiger heads. That eliminates Dwight's Warp 6 build. The CV-juan heads have canted valves.

[Stan Weiss]

Paul,
I don't know what engine they are talking about in that video. I do know that 8 or more years ago John had post Torque 870 @ 7000 and HP 1290 @ 8300.

Stan

[mgarblik]

Possibly some sort of Visner head? {sp} I know they made a few different variations for Pontiac application.