Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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Old 04-01-2019, 07:18 PM
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Default My budget turbo EFI manifold

I decided to stick with the proven 'charge pipes entering opposite each other' type of plenum, it seemed to work ok with my old blow through carbs set up.
I basically cut and shut the old carb box, and bolted a pair of 75mm ebay throttle bodies to it- each T/B entering the plenum directly opposite each other for good air distribution. The plenum volume is 396 cu in and it will also have a pair of 2" tall phenolic plastic carb spacers under it which will increase the volume by another 49 cu in, these spacers will house the 160lb injectors, each one aiming down the opposite port ,ie, the number 1 cylinder injector will be opposite at number two cylinder, and so on. I want the fuel injected up high in the manifold for better charge cooling and atomisation.
The box will get the Pontiac arrowhead etched into it and then it will be shot/media blasted so that it has a cast like appearance, not sure if I'm going to paint it Black yet.
There's still quite a bit to do yet, I would like to put a pair of air bells inside the box over the manifold plenums, if I can find something suitable.
I'll post some progress as it's done. We are still going to build an EFI manifold using the Gutsram and Holley top lid we bought for my son's race car, just waiting for them to be delivered.
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Old 04-01-2019, 07:33 PM
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The holes in the front of the box were for the BOV's, I'll probably put a burst panel in there .
My sons manifold will have a similar ali base plate to bolt the Holley lid to the Gutsram, but it will be thicker (around an 1") and hollowed out like an open spacer.
His will have port injection as the Gutsram has injector bosses as standard. And we are going to offset the Holley lid forward as much as possible to make it easier for the charge air to turn into the front cylinders. We're going to use Holley HP ecu's and wiring etc. for both cars just to simplify tuning,this is my first efi install.
Both cars are projected to make around 1350hp, both have '59 factory 389 blocks (we located a '58 389 engine just 10 miles from home- in the UK! ), although I expect my son's car to be a little bit quicker as it weighs less - 2500lbs to my 2800lbs.
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  #3  
Old 04-01-2019, 07:42 PM
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58s were 347?Had smaller mains?Tom

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Old 04-01-2019, 10:43 PM
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Here is a Picture of Rodney Butler and Travis Engine when it had the injectors TRYING to fire across the plenum into the opposite runner. It also had 4 injectors supplying fuel to the air before it entered the throttle body.

Travis asked me if I thought it would work. Firing across the plenum. I said I do not know but we can try it I suppose.

So Travis built the intake as you see it in the picture. Alcohol engine. 16 injectors.

So Travis tried it and it was a disaster, all of the fuel was feeding the rear cylinders.
So somewhere I have a picture where Travis welded up the openings for the injectors in the plenum and moved them to the runners. Worked much better and the engine eventually ran 6.27 at 228 mph.

So now that I know what I did not know then, I would not recommend trying to do what you are proposing. Travis plenum was a 4" round tube. You are talking I believe about firing across a much greater distance. Maybe with your plenum shape it might work.
I know that Travis first design did not work as expected. Just saying.

Tom V.
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Old 04-02-2019, 07:25 AM
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Sorry Tom s - '59 to '60 389 has 3" mains, both of ours are a '59 389.
Tom v, thanks again for the info, just to clarify - my intake will have the injectors fitted in a pair of 2" plastic carb spacers under the plenum box, placed at an approx. 30 degree angle and firing directly down the opposite port into the Offy plenums, 4 injectors per plenum. Here is a (very) rough sketch of what it will look like- what's your opinion on this? Thanks.
And a pic of my modded Offy intake plenums.
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Last edited by taff2; 04-02-2019 at 07:30 AM.
  #6  
Old 04-02-2019, 10:45 AM
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Thanks for the clarification. Was thinking fabricated plenum but missed the injector location. That should be somewhat like the Throttle Body (Carb Look-alike) set-ups but with the fuel pointing at the very short runners.

Lots of people are doing the front entry Throttle Body (LS) type plenum designs.
You created a special intake with your roof modded Offy Intake so you have a straight shot at the valves. Forgot completely about that design change vs a normal offy intake.
I was also mixing up your current Offy modied intake vs the Wenzler TR intake you were talking about building and had ordered the lower intake from Larry. That may have more of the issues that Travis had with firing across the plenum vs the Offy intake.

Tom V.

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Old 04-02-2019, 01:49 PM
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Old 04-02-2019, 05:12 PM
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Cheers Tom, I'll run the design of the Wenzler/Holley manifold by you when we make a start on it.
ps, the Gutsram was delivered yesterday (to a friend in Florida), it weighs 23lb. That should help stabilise the block when its bolted across the heads.

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Old 04-04-2019, 09:27 AM
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I have had a couple of Larry's manifolds in the past. I still have a Early Wenzler Tunnel Ram Intake.
As you posted they are built like tanks.

Tom V.

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Old 05-25-2019, 11:59 AM
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I would expect that due to the multi direction turbulence within the plenum, the fuel spraying across would dissipate dramatically before it ever made it across to the appropriate intake runner.

The inside of a plenum is not a calm peaceful place. You literally have 8 cylinders tugging and pulling from the same well of air making the atmosphere within very unstable for direct linear travel of fuel from an injector. I personally dont see it working very well... however I'm not an engineer, it just does not play out well in my personal visualization of operation.

Its like driving down the road at 55MPH and trying to spit out the window and hit car next to you.

TBI works because it mixes both air and fuel upon entrance... so the fuel is equally suspended in the air moving about inside the plenum... Using injectors below the throttle body and across from the runner would both not allow time to mix evenly enough and create pools of uneven air/fuel ratios...

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Last edited by AIR RAM; 05-25-2019 at 12:07 PM.
  #11  
Old 05-25-2019, 03:13 PM
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We know that trying to fire a stream of fuel across a 4" distance will not work, Travis Q. proved that deal years ago.

Air in the plenum does not seem to care much if you have a "extension" going part way towards the intake port. That extension might help with finding a "distance" that would properly add fuel to the specific Intake Port. It would "shield the Fuel" from the Turbulence in the Plenum.

You might have to make a couple of configurations to get it right.

Because you do not have a runner divider, the Fuel Shift from center of the port might
small enough that the fuel still can enter the proper port when it need the fuel.

I think I would point the injector stream of both injectors towards the "Missing Divider' location.

Tom V.

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Old 05-29-2019, 06:55 AM
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I am still debating whether to put the injectors in the usual location directly over the head port entrance, but I like the idea of the injectors being further from the valves for the cooling of the charge air and improved dispersion of the fuel droplets. I have decided not to use the 2" spacers to site the injectors - the choice now is either in the manifold runners just under the carb flange and pointing down the opposite ports, or in the normal location in the manifold runners just above the head ports. I feel there would be a slight power increase in siting the injectors up higher in the manifold (just like a carb usually gives more power because of the fuel vaporisation process versus efi) but it's whether the potential power increase would be worthwhile. If the idea didn't work it would be a fair bit of work to re-do it all......
I understand the effects of turbulence within the manifold and I believe that the reversal of flows within the manifold would probably pull fuel from one runner to another even if the fuel is injected right at the valve - given that fuel is injected at the back of a closed valve in a lot of instances anyway.

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Old 06-06-2019, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taff2 View Post
I am still debating whether to put the injectors in the usual location directly over the head port entrance, but I like the idea of the injectors being further from the valves for the cooling of the charge air and improved dispersion of the fuel droplets. I have decided not to use the 2" spacers to site the injectors - the choice now is either in the manifold runners just under the carb flange and pointing down the opposite ports, or in the normal location in the manifold runners just above the head ports. I feel there would be a slight power increase in siting the injectors up higher in the manifold (just like a carb usually gives more power because of the fuel vaporisation process versus efi) but it's whether the potential power increase would be worthwhile. If the idea didn't work it would be a fair bit of work to re-do it all......
I understand the effects of turbulence within the manifold and I believe that the reversal of flows within the manifold would probably pull fuel from one runner to another even if the fuel is injected right at the valve - given that fuel is injected at the back of a closed valve in a lot of instances anyway.

I will put money on the idea of firing the injector across the opposite ports will NOT work as you envision. The fuel spray will unlikely make it across to that intended port. Again its like spitting out the window of a moving vehicle trying to get it into the window of a car 2 feet away moving the same speed... You wont hit it!

A carb operates much differently... the air and fuel are introduced at the same time... So the air in the intake is equally proportioned AFR. Your injectors are individually spraying into pure air pockets in the manifold. So the AFR is can not be and will not be consistent within the manifold. When they are aligned with the runner pointed to the valve, they are able to mix properly with the air traveling by them. The air picks up the metered fuel from the injector as it races into the cylinder... The fuel has no other place to go but down into the cylinder.

Fire them down the same port they are mounted on... mounting them higher in that port may give you slightly improved atomization... but I cant see firing across working well at all. You will lose more than you gain.

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Last edited by AIR RAM; 06-06-2019 at 09:50 PM.
  #14  
Old 06-07-2019, 05:59 PM
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Old 06-07-2019, 06:13 PM
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Great Video 69GTO. That is why you can't assume that the Plenum is a "Big Valley with a bunch of little rain storms gently showering the different "caves" with a "Rain".

More like a Hurricane in the middle of the ocean with water going everywhere and changing constantly. At work we video-camed several engine intake systems.

Tom V.

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Old 06-07-2019, 06:26 PM
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Wow, always what I have wanted to see, looks nothing like I imagined though, Thanks for the vid !


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Old 12-18-2019, 06:26 PM
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Here's a few pics of the re-vamped intake, Wenzler Gutsram with my original carb box . I'll be positioning the injectors in the usual place- as much for convenience as knowing that they will work at that location. The Gutsram took some grinding to clean up the ports!
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Old 12-18-2019, 10:55 PM
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Nice work as usual Taff2

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Old 12-19-2019, 06:13 AM
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Where is your usual location?

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Old 12-19-2019, 06:36 AM
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Thanks JS.
In the bosses cast into the runners,just above the head ports. With my previous modified Offy manifold,I had contemplated placing the injectors in a spacer over the plenum and firing into each opposite port - for the extra cooling of the charge by better fuel vapourisation- but as time is limited,I decided to go with the proven method of injector placement. I've also switched from my Siamese ported 96 heads and open Offy to conventional 7H1 divided port runner heads and the Gutsram for the same reasons.

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