[92GTA]

A quick search here reveals that not many users like the Hotchkis sway bar setup. Specifically the rear setup for 1st gen F-bodies. I tend to agree, I'm not keen to remove my rear seat and drill holes in my car.


That said, no one mentioned the best alternative which has the best mounting solution for a 67-69 Firebird.


Suggestions? I have Hotchkis everything, except the sway bars, that's my final upgrade. I figure if I'm going to go with someone else for the rear sway, I may as well get the front from them so they are matched correctly so I won't have understeer/oversteer issues due to that factor.


Thanks!

[Geoff]

I had the Hellwig rear bar on my GTO. Only extra holes needed were drilled from under the car, & not into the passenger compartment. Well made & good instructions. Not sure if FB is the same.

[64speed]

UMI hands down. All their stuff is great

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by 64speed

UMI hands down. All their stuff is great

Thanks, but they do not make anything for 1st gen F-bodies except coil overs, shocks, and tie rod adjusters.

[HWYSTR455]

Use the OE type mounting for the bar. Did your car come with a sway bar from the factory? If not, they do make the frame bracket, and it's best to weld it on, but the bolt on ones work.

After that, a bar is a bar is a bar for the most part. (Aside from hollow bars). The Summit one is fine:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...model/firebird

Look at the install instructions for a little insight.

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[rohrt]

On the pro-touring site the consensus is a rear sway bar for a 1st gen is a waste of money assuming you are using a leaf spring setup. The twisting of the springs acts like a sway bar already and using one often caused a dangerous understeer condition.

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by HWYSTR455

Use the OE type mounting for the bar. Did your car come with a sway bar from the factory? If not, they do make the frame bracket, and it's best to weld it on, but the bolt on ones work.

After that, a bar is a bar is a bar for the most part. (Aside from hollow bars). The Summit one is fine:

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...model/firebird

Look at the install instructions for a little insight.

.

Only came with a front one.

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by rohrt

On the pro-touring site the consensus is a rear sway bar for a 1st gen is a waste of money assuming you are using a leaf spring setup. The twisting of the springs acts like a sway bar already and using one often caused a dangerous understeer condition.

Interesting, but that makes a little sense. Do you mean oversteer though, from being too stiff if a rear sway is added? I'd think stock it has understeer from being too soft in the rear compared to the front.

I'm also running CalTracs so that's also keeping my new Hotchkis springs in check. I guess I'll just upgrade the front one and hope that it doesn't make the front too stiff compared to the rear that it's dangerous. Perhaps I'll call and speak to Hotchkis on the subject and post on the Lateral-g forums. I don't always trust those pro-touring guys, many of them go for looks I think more than performance.

Thanks!

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by 92GTA

Interesting, but that makes a little sense. Do you mean oversteer though, from being too stiff if a rear sway is added?

Thanks!

Yeah that is what I was trying to say.

Do some searches on the pro-touring site there should be plenty on the subject.

I had a rear swaybar installed and ended up selling it before I ever drove it.

[92GTA]

Originally Posted by rohrt

Yeah that is what I was trying to say.

Do some searches on the pro-touring site there should be plenty on the subject.

I had a rear swaybar installed and ended up selling it before I ever drove it.

Will do, thanks a lot! You might have saved me some $$$, I appreciate it!

[Scarebird]

Originally Posted by rohrt

On the pro-touring site the consensus is a rear sway bar for a 1st gen is a waste of money...

I would temper that "consensus" - a lot. The factory installed these rear bars even on base models on second gens for a few years; GM would not have done this had there been no gain.

[92GTA]

UPDATE: Upon further research, I've decided to go with the addition of the fays2 watts link setup. Maybe there is an aftermarket rear sway bar setup for a 1st gen that will clear the fays2 watts link, but I need to research more, or maybe call fays2 for their input.

[rohrt]

Originally Posted by Scarebird

I would temper that "consensus" - a lot. The factory installed these rear bars even on base models on second gens for a few years; GM would not have done this had there been no gain.

You make a good point. Its been a number of years now but I think my research was based on the TVS setup.

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...rear+sway+bard

[HWYSTR455]

I looked into Watts setups way back, and in the end, determined that for leaf cars, there are easier ways to control lateral movement, mainly with proper springs and bushings. The difference would only be noticed on a full track car, road/circuit course type.

Depending on the driver' preference, in most cases, it's preferred to have oversteer than understeer. For street 'grocery drivers', it's 'safer' to have more understeer. With oversteer, and enough power, you can get out of just about any situation, which is not the same as it is with understeer (with power).

On a track-only car, setup with high rate springs, true most of the 'pros' don't recommend a rear bar. But. On a street/track car, you should have at least a small bar, or mounts to accommodate a bar, in the event you need to add one for a particular course/driving event. Having a high rate spring on the rear, which requires a higher rate on the front to be balanced, subjects the car to washboard effect, so you need softer springs for street driving. Once you go softer, you need a rear bar.

You can go back to the old Gulfstrand/Adams debate, of stiffer springs/smaller bars or softer springs/bigger bars.

Herb always recommended a bar on the back of 2nd gens, that I know, but I have less experience/knowledge on the 1st gens. Can't be that much diff though, same principals apply.

As for Hotchkis, you can debate the Hotchkis/Global West just like you can the Gulfstrand/Adams approaches, and personally, I'm a Adam/Global West guy, so call me biased if you want. It works for me and my driving style.

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[Skip Fix]

Using a second gen for a base I personally liked stiff front springs to help with brake dive, moderate front bar 1 1/4" , stock rate rear springs and small rear bar. Was pretty balanced for my driving style and one of my C4 Vette autocross buddies loved the feel when I let him drive it. Didn't like stiff rear springs or even a stiffer rear bar, would pick up the inside rear tire in hard turns or slant driveways.

[JLMounce]

Needing or not needing a rear bar really comes down to how the car is being used. If you don't ever intend to auto-x or road race the car, you can get by without it. On the street a quality leaf spring like a hotchkis, global west etc. is going to provide you with good traction and cornering without the need for a rear sway bar.

Most of these leaf spring packages however don't have the necessary rate in them that the car needs in a sticky tire, high performance application. You can get custom leafs built with almost any rate you'd want, but sticking a 500 lb leaf in the back is going to absolutely murder your ride if you're driving on the street. In that situation you need a bar to add that wheel rate during cornering.

I have the Hellwig bars, but I have not installed my rear bar at this time simply because the car handles very balanced and predictably with how I drive it currently. The hellwig rear bar mounts to the frame and there's no drilling into the trunk. It does come with a passenger side spacer as you'll be near the fuel line. That spacer is designed to push the mount out past the line.

My advise would be to skip the rear bar for now and see how you like the car's balance and handling. You can always add a rear bar later if you want/need it.

[HWYSTR455]

Originally Posted by Skip Fix

... would pick up the inside rear tire in hard turns or slant driveways.

Exactly. There are other causes too, like if the chassis is super tight, with frame ties, roll bar, and cowl bars. There is a balance, and it's the rate between the front and rear springs, at least once you get into that ridged of a chassis.

The 79 T/A WS6 was one of the best handling cars of the time, and they had very small rear bars as I recall. 3/4 if I remember right, and the 'regular', non-WS6 cars got the 5/8. Earlier years got the 1", as a comparison.

The H-O front bars were 1 3/8. And believe they recommended a 1" in the rear for that bar. I vaguely recall there was a shootout with a Guldstrand, Adams, and an H-O prepped 2nd gens, and I think the H-O one was dubbed the best handling. (but my mem is a little foggy from age!). Granted, believe the Adams car had WS6 springs cut shorter, other two had higher rate springs.

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