[johnta1]

Yep.

Evidently Framington is an exception, they decided to add the blurb about the stripe color to the option description, so it required more space to print it.



They put it first also possibly for the line workers to know they had to do extra work on the body?

[judger69]

Originally Posted by johnta1

And a number above 2 digits:

z115xxx
pattern Judge #103
2/19/69

TT 58 4sp zzb508840

I have some info on this pattern Judge Dealer Order #00103 car z1155xx:

This car has a 01D cowl tag (I have a pic of it).

Freemont 58 4spd. zzb508840

Shipped to zone lot # 24 991 on Feb. 19, and sold to a dealership in California on March 11.

BVZ hope this doesn't aggravate your headache.

Is that a normal spread from the cowl tag 01D to the ship date Feb. 19?

[RAIVJUDGE]

Thanks for the information. Framingham and Fremont did there own thing

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Originally Posted by judger69

BVZ hope this doesn't aggravate your headache.

Is that a normal spread from the cowl tag 01D to the ship date Feb. 19?

LoL, not at all a problem on the old headaches Man.

The "ship dates" on these Pattern Cars is when they left from the Zone Storage Holding Lots (xx-99x). Relates nothing to when the car was built or left the factory.
These are their own little animal in many ways.

I would expect a Fremont 115xxx to be a 1D
114xxx to be 1C
113xxx to be 1B

It probably won't be "exactly" that cut and dry - but pretty close.
With the the normal few exceptions to be expected here and there around the edges.

Have seen examples of 1C and 1D with earlier "ship dates" than a 1B .
The "ship dates" are virtually useless on these other than to be entertaining,
and indicates there was likely a timed release statute involved - we suppose.

They have a ship date / date of note / and a date of interest starting (if GMAC).
The Feb date is when it left the zone lot to go to that dealer.
The March date is probably the interest date.

[judger69]

OK that clears that up then. Thanks.

About the dealer order 00103 has there been other pattern cars with the dealer order numbers above 100??

Or any other 01D Freemonts with the same 00103 code?

[johnta1]

There might be others with higher numbers than 103.

But there would be only one 103 in Fremont, or only one per plant.
(I think)

Not a lot is actually known I think about these.
We keep learning more and more as time goes on and other examples show up.

[Baron Von Zeppelin]

Well actually ....
( I ) think these are weekly schedule running total / head count , per plant.

Which means we would see repetition on a lot of numbers.
If i'm at least half way right.
But maybe not the higher/highest numbers.

Have a 1B Fremont with Order 00143 , so that first week would have also had a 103 - potentially.

Will have to go through all mine again to look for repeats in same plant.

Too many examples from 17 - 77 for them to have been grand totals of a 6-7 week production period of Pattern Cars.

If we go with 1,000 units ... that would be 200 per plant (5 plants)
If we go 2,000 units approx ... that is 400 per plant.

Here is another group of factoids - for Fremont
From what would be on the trim tags (1B only have buildsheet)

1B - 03875 body number / xxxxxx job sequence number / 768768 job plan number
1C - 04448 / 140255 / 801945
1D - 04523 / 170376 / 801506
1D - 04565 / 16076x / 872959
1E - 04722 / 200444 / 809956

That slop isn't going to help much of anything . lmao

[judger69]

Originally Posted by Baron Von Zeppelin

Here is another group of factoids - for Fremont
From what would be on the trim tags (1B only have buildsheet)

1B - 03875 body number / xxxxxx job sequence number / 768768 job plan number
1C - 04448 / 140255 / 801945
1D - 04523 / 170376 / 801506
1D - 04565 / 16076x / 872959
1E - 04722 / 200444 / 809956

That slop isn't going to help much of anything . lmao

I'll throw my slop on the pile. The 01D judge with dealer order 00103 I referred to earlier has the following on the cowl tag: (very much in line with your slop)

01D - 04623 / 180119 / 801647 I hope this helps if nothing but more info for ya.

As someone said earlier, keep up the good work gents!!!

I know you'll crack the code with enough info & research.

I can send you a pic of the cowl tag if needed.

[johnta1]

Here's another Pattern Judge with 3 digits.
(missed it in my records )

z113xxx
pattern Judge #143
1/04/69

TT 58 Auto zz(a?)768768

This VIN is one of the earliest I have seen for Fremont.
(not that I have a lot of them)

[johnta1]

Just noticed BVZ already showed this.



Oh well to the top I guess.

[north]

I just found this thread, interesting, I'll review the thread and review my stuff.

For now I can answer one question I saw; no Pontiac plant built judges because that plant only began producing A bodies in April.

[johnta1]

North, how many of your 69 Judges are pattern Judges?
Have any Arlington pattern Judges?

I thought I had some data on them, but with the thread in the Judge section about the parted out Judge, I noticed it was a pattern Judge and it is an Arlington plant build.

R134297
pattern Judge - 00089

89 would suggest at least 89 pattern Judges there?

My PHS' pales in comparison to yours.

[north]

I don’t have access to my computer now, but I’ll look tomorrow. I don’t keep notation on if or not it’s a pattern car but I’d say from memory about a quarter to a third are. I’ll look at the Arlington built ones and let you know.

[north]

I am looking now, I currently have 68 judge PHS's from Arlington. A lot of the cars are patternish but many have AC. I'm going to do a bit of research including adding the order number onto my data base. Maybe something interesting will come out of it. bear with me though, adding a line to hundreds of cars will take some time.

[johnta1]

That's fine.

Glad for the help.

[north]

A bit of news on the Dealer Order Numbers (DON)... I entered all the DON my Atlanta built cars (about 100 GTO's).

A few observations, the low figure DON seen on judges are only for Zone ordered pattern judges and seem to follow very roughly in chronological order with the VIN.
Later Judges (zone or dealer order codes) have typical 5 digit DON
Zone ordered regular GTO's also have regular DON's. So seems like those two or three digit DON's were exclusive to early pattern judge orders.
Zone cars invoiced after the regular 69 model run had ended have a blank box where you'd normally see the DON.
The regular DON numbers don't indicate any pattern but they seem to be originated by Pontiac rather than being the number each dealer assigned to his own orders.

As I enter the other plants codes to my spreadsheet I'll post here if I see a change in the patterns mentioned above

[johnta1]

Cool info.

[north]

I'm going to start a new thread, in the Judge section. Think the info I'm collecting is interesting enough to merit a thread.

[aldiaz1959]

I’m the current owner of the car that started this thread
I see the build sheet and PHS had been posted
I’ll post them again and I’ll add the cowl tag . Im pretty certain this is the earliest surviving judge m
My question to the group refers to the build sheet
What does “BY-PASS CODE 2” mean?





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