#81  
Old 07-16-2018, 04:38 PM
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Production numbers were low because production didn't start until January instead of September like most others.

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  #82  
Old 07-16-2018, 04:50 PM
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/\ it that was in reguard to the RAIV part of my post;
To the best of my knowledge, you are partially correct;
The "1970+" Firebirds were not debut till February 1970, but the RAIV was from the onset, not officially an option;
Then add to the fact that it wasn't officially an option that (from my reading) it appears as though PMD actually intended for the Firebird (Formula & Trans Am) to use a different version of the RAIV engine - which used the RPO 'LS1';
From the September 1969 model debut of the GTO, the RAIV used RPO 'L67', just like 1967 RA(I), 1968 RA(I) & RAII, and the 1969 RAIV;
But the RAIV in the "1970+" Firebirds was supposed to be a different engine - and was not intended to take from the GTO 'L67' engines...
As I recall, the 'L67' engines were only "green lighted" for use in the Trans Am at around July 1970 after the 'LS1' engine program was officially moth-balled which is also right about the time the 'L67' Firebirds (all Trans Am's) were all built... this is why none were built before the tail end of the model year...

At least that is what I have read.

I cannot recall the sources I read that all in... but I welcome it being debunked.

I love the fact that one of the lead press cars for the 1970 Firebirds was a pre-production RAIV car...

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Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #83  
Old 07-16-2018, 07:24 PM
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I love the age-old question: "What do you think that's worth?" The answer is, and always has been, the same - whatever the buyer thinks it's worth. Seller's asking price and Buyer's offer price are often different. Each party wishes to maximize value for their interest. Not rocket science here. While it is easy to understand that a faction of people will regard this car as no different from any other 71 Judge HT, there is a faction that will regard it higher due to special paint, due to single family ownership, due to originality and due to being the very last of breed (if can be proven).

So...would the car likely sell for more than a '71 GTO Judge of similar provenance, miles, originality due to these special circumstance? I'd venture to answer YES. How much more is open for debate and is purely speculative. It could ignite a bidding war between collectors. What if someone owned '71 GTO judge #1 and wanted 71 GTO Judge # LAST. He'd have book ends. Or someone with 1969 GTO Judge #1 and 1971 GTO Judge # Last - same issue but for an era.

To think that this car will be regarded the same as "any 1971 GTO Judge" is an unwise stance. It will be regarded higher...how much is unknown.

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  #84  
Old 07-16-2018, 08:45 PM
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Really looking forward to seeing more of this Judge! It's hard to tell on my monitor, but it looks like on some of the pics there's no 455HO callouts on the airfoil end caps, and on others it looks like they might be red. What do you guys see?

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  #85  
Old 07-16-2018, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Boss View Post
Production numbers were low because production didn't start until January instead of September like most others.
I have seen a document at the GM Heritage Center that shows the first Judge was built in August 1970.

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Old 07-16-2018, 09:53 PM
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What’s going on with the black endura bumper? Any photos from the full frontal view?

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Old 07-16-2018, 10:40 PM
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special order car got black or primed bumpers..the bumpers where supplied painted..so if it was a non traditional or special color it could get black or primer..

at least thats what all the old timers have told me..they where there...notice some of the 68 special order color, cars had chrome bumpers? thats part of the reason why..

worked up to 73 or 74..there a famous SD T/A car that was black and came with red bumpers and flairs..well documented special ordered it new...black was special order and no black bumpers existed..so they supplied the car with red..and the dealer paint them in house...

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  #88  
Old 07-17-2018, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diego View Post
I have seen a document at the GM Heritage Center that shows the first Judge was built in August 1970.

My comment was related to Jonny's regarding Firebird production & the RA IV.

I know, hard to keep up when the threads start to contain multiple conversations.

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  #89  
Old 07-17-2018, 09:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marxjunk View Post
special order car got black or primed bumpers..the bumpers where supplied painted..so if it was a non traditional or special color it could get black or primer..

at least thats what all the old timers have told me..they where there...notice some of the 68 special order color, cars had chrome bumpers? thats part of the reason why..

worked up to 73 or 74..there a famous SD T/A car that was black and came with red bumpers and flairs..well documented special ordered it new...black was special order and no black bumpers existed..so they supplied the car with red..and the dealer paint them in house...
Thanks Mark, I had forgotten about that practice but remember that Black SD T/A with the red bumpers and flairs.

I swear I remember seeing a thread a few years back on a a special order OO 71 GTO (non Judge) that had black bumpers as well. Does anybody remember that or is just me? Maybe HFR has it tagged....Mike, ring any bells?

Edit: I found this thread from 2010 where an OO 71 GTO is mentioned. http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...67#post3955867
BJ

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Last edited by OVERULD; 07-17-2018 at 09:49 PM.
  #90  
Old 07-17-2018, 10:40 PM
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BJ, Gary (MC) owns the '71 455 HO 3spd OO GTO.
Fairly late Spring build... memory serves right.

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Old 07-17-2018, 11:10 PM
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Thanks Roger, I’d forgotten that but remember it now. Must have been all the Sweet Apple Pie moonshine that Bob brought to the TA Nats and MACACN last year. I think Gary, Chris and I even talked about it over drinks one night. Sucks getting old!

BJ

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  #92  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
BJ, Gary (MC) owns the '71 455 HO 3spd OO GTO.
Fairly late Spring build... memory serves right.
I'd be very interested to read about this...

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #93  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head View Post
BJ, Gary (MC) owns the '71 455 HO 3spd OO GTO.
Fairly late Spring build... memory serves right.
I was trying to think of who owned that car when someone asked me at the POCI convention about OO '71s. Didn't put two and two together until this thread started.

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Old 07-18-2018, 07:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OVERULD View Post
Thanks Roger, I’d forgotten that but remember it now. Must have been all the Sweet Apple Pie moonshine that Bob brought to the TA Nats and MACACN last year. I think Gary, Chris and I even talked about it over drinks one night. Sucks getting old!

BJ

We did but you may have had a distraction that evening.

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Some guys they just give up living
And start dying little by little, piece by piece,
Some guys come home from work and wash up,
And go racin' in the street.


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  #95  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:23 PM
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I Wonder if this Judge is included for the 1971 Judge total production numbers of 374 or could it be 375?
Gotta love those mud flaps had them on my car in the day. Can't wait to see the pictures from the car show next month!
Kuddos to the original owner for keeping her safe in the Garage. Mileage...my guess 52,750.

  #96  
Old 07-18-2018, 12:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by feb69judge View Post
I Wonder if this Judge is included for the 1971 Judge total production numbers of 374 or could it be 375?
...
you know, you just might be correct!?

I would assume that the previous totals would have been collected years afterwards, by rifling through PHS documents from the conventional time window...

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
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Old 07-18-2018, 05:20 PM
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The 374 comes from the PMD tally records for the year report. So, I'm sure it was counted.

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Old 07-18-2018, 05:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Held for Ransom View Post
The 374 comes from the PMD tally records for the year report. So, I'm sure it was counted.
I've got the tally month by month and indeed this car is a part of everything that we know to be true.

  #99  
Old 07-18-2018, 05:48 PM
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huh... ok.

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1970 Formula 400
Carousel Red paint on Black standard interior
A no-engine, no-transmission, no-wheel option car.
Quite likely one of few '70 Muncie three speed Formula 400's left.


1991 Grand Am: 14.4 @ 93.7mph (DA corrected) (retired DD, stock appearing)
2009 Cobalt SS: 13.9 @ 103mph (current DD; makes something north of 300hp & 350ft/lbs)
  #100  
Old 07-18-2018, 06:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Diego View Post
I've got the tally month by month and indeed this car is a part of everything that we know to be true.
How many Judge built in April 1971? May 1971?

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