#41  
Old 03-10-2019, 04:52 AM
Dragncar Dragncar is online now
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Originally Posted by gtofreek View Post
You know, my customer started this post in the street section because they thought it would be nice to show this build as it progresses. It is for a street car, but seems it has turned into a pissing match about when to shift a 455 in a drag race scenario. WHO CARES! That is not what this thread was started for. If it was, it would be in the race section.

BTW Dragncar, 68AZbirds 455 heads do actually only flow in the mid 220's. They are #16 D-ports. I know because I did the valve job and flow tested every port. Also his car does not have a roller cam in it. It has a Harold Brookshire flat tappet cam in it. It also has dished pistons and is 9:1 and a true street car. I've personally seen it run 11.60's in the dead of summer in Phoenix with pump gas and boiling the fuel to the point where it only had about 1-2 PSI of fuel pressure at the end of the track. It's run 11.40 with a little better air, but Phoenix never really has great air, and Tucson is even way worse as our track is at 3075 feet, and our air quality is usually in the 5000-7000 foot range.
Paul, I do not doubt anything you say. Ever. I don't think 68AZbirds is pulling my leg either. Its not like my 455 lays down past 5500, it still pulls, RPMs still climb. But it ETs best when shifted short.
See, Dan told me where to shift it but I did not think shifting so low was cool. I let it rev to 6200 or higher. Then one day I red lit and just got pissed and clicked it into 2nd, then 3rd like bang,bang and ran it out with my foot to the floor. Best ET ever.
I just built on that. And this was when the valve springs were well past their prime. If I shift at the right point the car jumps and you see it when you get your slip. Let it shift too high and the shift is kinda soft. And you would think RPMs= rear tire speed. Just does not work out for me.
Its not like I do not think with the right cam as cast iron heads can not pull past 6K. Super Stock guys do it. But they go through a lot of cams finding the right one and keep the info close.
I think a lot of your work, your posts. My thoughts on this are out there on this but I will lay off it in this thread. OP has a point. I want to see how this 455 HO with your works ends up.
BTW, my heads need rebuilt. I would like to see that your valve job and Dans port work do on the bench. Never flowed them. Last time I had the intake off you could see oil on top of the intake valves pooling. The ex side needs milled again. Need spray welded and no one does it here I know of.
Not to many guys left I would trust with my heads.

  #42  
Old 03-10-2019, 10:26 AM
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Here is Paul's excellent balance work. Someone made an attempt previously to neutral balance this thing, but it wasn't even close.

Before and after pics.
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  #43  
Old 03-10-2019, 10:26 AM
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Balancer before and after
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  #44  
Old 03-10-2019, 10:27 AM
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Flexplate before and after
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  #45  
Old 03-10-2019, 10:59 AM
68azbird 68azbird is offline
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Hey Braggingcar do you drive your car to the track and run a full exhaust system?
Shifting at 5500-6000 doesn't go any faster homey

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  #46  
Old 03-10-2019, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Flexplate before and after

You got the pics reversed. They are after and before.

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  #47  
Old 03-10-2019, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by gtofreek View Post
You got the pics reversed. They are after and before.
Baaaaa!! LOL I'm not the best at this but hopefully guys reading get the idea.

  #48  
Old 03-10-2019, 05:11 PM
Dragncar Dragncar is online now
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Originally Posted by 68azbird View Post
Hey Braggingcar do you drive your car to the track and run a full exhaust system?
Shifting at 5500-6000 doesn't go any faster homey
I said I would not get into that here anymore. Its not fair to the OP. I will make a thread and we can discuss there.

  #49  
Old 03-18-2019, 06:12 PM
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Some teaser pics.

Pistons are on the rods. Bearings are all prepped. File fitting rings now. Crank will go in when the rear main seal gets here. Then it's #1 piston time and degree the camshaft.
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  #50  
Old 03-18-2019, 06:33 PM
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Some other details.

The pistons were originally set up too tight in the bore at .003". They called for .004 to .0045". So Paul honed the cylinders with a torque plate and found the previous shop never machined the block with a torque plate. As soon as Paul touched the bores there were places throughout all the bores that the hone didn't even touch, they were way out of round. Luckily honing to the proper size of .001 to .0015" took care of it. Dodged a bullet there otherwise it would have been an overbore and new piston time.

The block wasn't decked properly either. Can't remember if Paul said it was lopsided or which ever way??? but it required a fair amount of material off to correct.

The rods were also a mess. The big end was honed .001" too tight and the small end was setup too tight and started scoring the pins. Luckily caught that early, Paul polished the pins and was good to go. Also found the rod bolts were 1/4" too long and wouldn't stretch properly when torqued. So Paul resized the rods to the proper dimensions with new bolts, and honed the small end for proper clearance for the power level we are expecting.

The heads needed all new guides as Paul found they had .004" clearance. With the cheap umbrella seals this thing had it would have been an oil sucker.
Now has all new guides and valves, positive seals, and I think you know the rest as I believe I talked about the heads and the flow numbers Paul picked up with his valve job previously.

This thing will rock the dyno soon. Thanks to Paul for all his attention to the details.

  #51  
Old 03-18-2019, 06:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Some other details.

The pistons were originally set up too tight in the bore at .003". They called for .004 to .0045". So Paul honed the cylinders with a torque plate and found the previous shop never machined the block with a torque plate. As soon as Paul touched the bores there were places throughout all the bores that the hone didn't even touch, they were way out of round. Luckily honing to the proper size of .001 to .0015" took care of it. Dodged a bullet there otherwise it would have been an overbore and new piston time.

The block wasn't decked properly either. Can't remember if Paul said it was lopsided or which ever way??? but it required a fair amount of material off to correct.

The rods were also a mess. The big end was honed .001" too tight and the small end was setup too tight and started scoring the pins. Luckily caught that early, Paul polished the pins and was good to go. Also found the rod bolts were 1/4" too long and wouldn't stretch properly when torqued. So Paul resized the rods to the proper dimensions with new bolts, and honed the small end for proper clearance for the power level we are expecting.

The heads needed all new guides as Paul found they had .004" clearance. With the cheap umbrella seals this thing had it would have been an oil sucker.
Now has all new guides and valves, positive seals, and I think you know the rest as I believe I talked about the heads and the flow numbers Paul picked up with his valve job previously.

This thing will rock the dyno soon. Thanks to Paul for all his attention to the details.
Looking forward to the dyno results Larry!

  #52  
Old 03-18-2019, 07:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
Some other details.

The pistons were originally set up too tight in the bore at .003". They called for .004 to .0045". So Paul honed the cylinders with a torque plate and found the previous shop never machined the block with a torque plate. As soon as Paul touched the bores there were places throughout all the bores that the hone didn't even touch, they were way out of round. Luckily honing to the proper size of .001 to .0015" took care of it. Dodged a bullet there otherwise it would have been an overbore and new piston time.

The block wasn't decked properly either. Can't remember if Paul said it was lopsided or which ever way??? but it required a fair amount of material off to correct.

The rods were also a mess. The big end was honed .001" too tight and the small end was setup too tight and started scoring the pins. Luckily caught that early, Paul polished the pins and was good to go. Also found the rod bolts were 1/4" too long and wouldn't stretch properly when torqued. So Paul resized the rods to the proper dimensions with new bolts, and honed the small end for proper clearance for the power level we are expecting.

The heads needed all new guides as Paul found they had .004" clearance. With the cheap umbrella seals this thing had it would have been an oil sucker.
Now has all new guides and valves, positive seals, and I think you know the rest as I believe I talked about the heads and the flow numbers Paul picked up with his valve job previously.

This thing will rock the dyno soon. Thanks to Paul for all his attention to the details.
One more example of WHY a competent engine machinist is a necessity.

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  #53  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:35 AM
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Dan Barton surly knows how to port heads and the 455 HO head and a Mopar 906 casting 440 head are very similar but for the valve inclination angle and the 440 head starting off a good 10 CCs larger in Intake port volume then the HO head.

I have reworked a 440 906 head casting up to 292 Intake cfm with a 2.14" valve and felt sure about the port wall thickness that was left and I can only assume that Dan stopped his HO head rework at 280 cfm to give a good safety margin also!

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  #54  
Old 03-19-2019, 11:36 AM
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Nothing wrong with the port work. Paul flowed several ports and they were all within 1 cfm of each other. That's excellent doing this stuff by hand. So Dan does do excellent porting.

The rest of the cylinder head sucked.. I can only assume the machine shop was responsible for the rest of the head setup because I can't imagine Dan would have let heads with so much porting effort go out the door with sloppy guides, umbrella seals, horrible springs that were so weak they were rotating in the pockets and eating the retainers, used 2 piece valves in it, and then not even bother to put hardened seats in either.

It was actually Paul's valve job and new set of Ferrea 1 piece valves that picked up the flow over the 280 mark, but what was the most impressive is 31 cfm picked up in the low lift area after Paul did the valve job.

I think Paul and Dan could get together and exchange ideas and come up with an excellent cylinder head. Obviously Dan ports a good head, and with Paul's knowledge he made it even better.

  #55  
Old 03-19-2019, 02:50 PM
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Those heads were ported in 2003. I'm not sure what guys were doing back then for valve grinding compared to what's being done now.

  #56  
Old 03-19-2019, 03:43 PM
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Paul putting hardened seats?
Were the seals leaking?

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Old 03-19-2019, 05:49 PM
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I did install hard exhaust seats, and it had umbrella seals, so I installed Viton positive seals. The blue ones with garter springs.

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  #58  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:17 PM
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I did install hard exhaust seats, and it had umbrella seals, so I installed Viton positive seals. The blue ones with garter springs.
Were the seats pounded and the seals leaking?

  #59  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:33 PM
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No the seats wern't pounded but if used on the street regularly, they would have been before too long.

Can't tell you if it was smoking or not because I never saw it run. Guides had between .004" and .005" wear in them so I'm sure it was trying to suck some oil down the guides.
What difference does it make anyway? I'm not putting umbrellas back on a head I can put a good seal on. Hard seats means the difference between a 30,000 mile valve job and a 100,000+ mile valve job. I've seen Pontiac exhaust seats recess 1/8" in as little as 10,000 miles in street use. Especially when you spring it for a roller cam. The springs that were on it were singles with a damper and barely made 90 lbs. on the seat, and 225 open. Way too little for a Pontiac head.

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  #60  
Old 03-19-2019, 07:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtofreek View Post
No the seats wern't pounded but if used on the street regularly, they would have been before too long.

Can't tell you if it was smoking or not because I never saw it run. Guides had between .004" and .005" wear in them so I'm sure it was trying to suck some oil down the guides.
What difference does it make anyway? I'm not putting umbrellas back on a head I can put a good seal on. Hard seats means the difference between a 30,000 mile valve job and a 100,000+ mile valve job. I've seen Pontiac exhaust seats recess 1/8" in as little as 10,000 miles in street use. Especially when you spring it for a roller cam. The springs that were on it were singles with a damper and barely made 90 lbs. on the seat, and 225 open. Way too little for a Pontiac head.
Just wondering. You guys make it sound like Dan did a hack job. The heads were done 17 years ago. After 17yrs the valves are still in one piece, no visible signs of the seals leaking and seats aren't pounded. Who knows what kind of abuse the heads saw over the last 17 years.
Maybe Dan did exactly what the customer asked for.
Also who knows just how much Dan was involved in the build. Dan never worked for the shop that built the engine as fas as i know (he just rented space there for his porting business and would help them out when asked)
Also if this new build sees 100,000 miles ill be VERY impressed! Almost no one i know drives their Pontiac that much. So if the owner does that's great!

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