[promptcritical]

Sounded to me like it was said that "they" were very impressed with the porting work. The springs and valve job may have been thought to be okay in 2003 for the small solid flat tappet cam that was used, but would not support what was being done to the motor with a new roller cam and all.

[Will]

Originally Posted by promptcritical

Those heads were ported in 2003. I'm not sure what guys were doing back then for valve grinding compared to what's being done now.

It's not like 2003 was the dark ages or something.

In 2000 I was using Serdi equipment and cutting seats with a multi-angle cutter to exact depths and installing guides to proper clearances. Our shop had a guarantee - we'd pay you $100 if you brought us a head we couldn't improve the valve job on, as tested with a vacuum tester.

We knew about appropriate spring pressures and torque plate honing, too.

[promptcritical]

Originally Posted by Will

It's not like 2003 was the dark ages or something.

In 2000 I was using Serdi equipment and cutting seats with a multi-angle cutter to exact depths and installing guides to proper clearances. Our shop had a guarantee - we'd pay you $100 if you brought us a head we couldn't improve the valve job on, as tested with a vacuum tester.

We knew about appropriate spring pressures and torque plate honing, too.

Never said it was the dark ages. I guess just a not so great valve job to go with the nice port work then. I was trying to be nice. Maybe that’s what the customer wanted. No torque plate, umbrella seals, no decking, small cam with whatever springs somebody wanted. A good valve job that was just done now netted 30 or so cfm in the low and mid range without any more porting. Go figure.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by slowbird

Just wondering. You guys make it sound like Dan did a hack job. The heads were done 17 years ago. After 17yrs the valves are still in one piece, no visible signs of the seals leaking and seats aren't pounded. Who knows what kind of abuse the heads saw over the last 17 years.
Maybe Dan did exactly what the customer asked for.
Also who knows just how much Dan was involved in the build. Dan never worked for the shop that built the engine as fas as i know (he just rented space there for his porting business and would help them out when asked)
Also if this new build sees 100,000 miles ill be VERY impressed! Almost no one i know drives their Pontiac that much. So if the owner does that's great!

You just contradicted your first sentence and stated exactly what I said earlier. Like mentioned, we have no way of knowing If Dan did all the head work or just the port work, but the fact remains, other than the port work, the heads were in need of changes and corners were cut. We don't run anything here with umbrella seals. Matter of fact, the heads were already cut for positive seals, but somehow went out the door with umbrellas. With the guide clearance that had along with umbrellas.....yeah it was sucking some oil.

The engine actually wasn't run that long and didn't have many miles on it despite being done 16 years ago. That's a good thing too, because the piston pins were scuffing themselves with clearances too tight, the springs were too weak and eating the retainers, and with the valves rocking in the guides I wouldn't have trusted the 2 piece valves very long.

This is all about a proper build for a strong running street car, pointing out the flaws found, as well as the excellent workmanship Paul and Jeff perform at the shop. As well as some dyno numbers to back it up. I haven't named the shop that did the previous work out of respect. Dan's name was worthy of mention for the nice port work performed but again in no way has anyone claimed Dan was responsible for the rest of the engine.

This car came to me for a restoration, and the owner wasn't happy with the performance of the engine and felt it should run better. I knew the cam choice was wrong, and the owner suspected that as well. As we dug into it more issues were found and more corners were cut, as I mentioned in previous posts. When Paul got into it we found things I wouldn't have suspected but wasn't surprised. The owner decided he would like to post up the build thread, and I obliged. I'm in no way trying to bash anyone, but I will point out what we found and what Paul had to correct.

Just to add, there are those of us that drive our classics. I drive my Firebird daily and I certainly don't build engines with the idea they are only going to last 30k miles or what ever number you have in mind. Everything I do here I expect it to go 6 digits, and have. This engine should be the last one the owner has to build for this car. The previous build of the engine this thread is about wouldn't have lasted anywhere near that long. It has some good parts in it, but the machine work fell quite a bit short.

[gtofreek]

Slowbird, neither myself nor Formula called Dan a hack. That is your word.

Matter of fact, I told Formula that Dan did a very nice port job on these heads. I flowed one random port in each head[both intake and exhaust] and they flowed almost exactly the same. Peak was exactly the same, and mid range #'s were within 3-4 CFM at each lift point. That is extremely hard to do on a factory cast Iron head. It takes a very good head porter to do that. The port job looked great! I see port jobs from a lot of "porting experts" and most do not look that good to the trained eye. Dans work was awesome. I in no way shape or form, said otherwise. Nor do I claim to be as good as or better than Dan. I am not, and will be the first to admit it. Can I port heads? Sure. I have ported dozens of sets of heads over the last 26 years, but I do not consider myself a head porter. I'm better than some, not as good as others. Never claimed to be better than anyone in particular.
Am I good at rebuilding heads? Yes, I think I'm very good at it. After all I've been rebuilding heads for 26 years and have rebuilt thousands of heads. I'm probably better than most in that area, but that comes from experience. I've rebuilt everything from 1 cylinder, air cooled Lister diesel heads to D9 Caterpillar heads and pretty much everything in between. I've built heads that had 2 cams, 24 valves and 36 rocker arms. You figure that one out. I've done valve jobs on engines as early as 1909 and as late as 2017. But I, in no way will ever compare my porting skills to Dans. His skills are far and above mine in that area. I have the utmost respect for him and his work. When I valve jobbed these heads I used my favorite two cutters to cut the seats with. I used the cutters that usually work good on ports like these. Did I expect it to pick up 30 CFM per lift point in the midrange? Hell no! That surprised me as much as it did Formula. But that doesn't mean I think I'm better than Dan. It only means that these heads really liked the angles I used over what was used before. Whoever did the valve job. I've done an awful lot of flow bench testing on super stock heads trying all kinds of different angles and such so I have a pretty good idea of what works and what doesn't but usually the gains are 10 CFM or less, not 30+. That was a total shocker. And like what was mentioned earlier, I don't know anything about who did the machine work before, or the customer it was done for. Sometimes customers don't want to spend the extra money to do what it takes to make something right. I.E. torque plate honing, decking etc., and some shops will do what they want. We are different. If a customer wants us to take short cuts, they are soon looking for another shop because we don't take shortcuts. If we did, and the customer has issues with the work, it's always the shops fault and not the customers fault for taking shortcuts. Jeff and I are very conscientious about the work we do, and we settle for nothing less than what's humanly possible. Also, we do not base our quality of work off of how many miles we feel the customer will put on their engines. We do all our work to the same high standards we do all out racing engines to. Just because it's a stock engine build, does not mean we do less than ideal work. The customer is paying the same, so they might as well get the very best we can do regardless of whether it makes 150 HP, or 1500 HP. So your comments about whether or not this customer will put 100,000 miles on it or not is meaningless. I don't care if he's only going to put 20 miles a year on it, it will still get machined like it has to run for 300,000 miles. I just can't bring myself to doing a lesser job on anything. Nor would Jeff stand for that. It's our reputation that's on the line. If it leaves or shop, it's going to be as good as we can make it. I once chased a Pontiac guy and his 428 off because he started telling me his block didn't need to be align honed before it was even checked. He ended up getting it rebuilt by Checker Auto parts for $1800. How good do you think that engine was built? We are not going to let the customer dictate how we do our job. Most of our customers LOVE that about us. Those that don't like it, can go somewhere else, because they, more than likely, will become a problem for us in the future. There is a reason why engine failures are a very rare thing in our shop. I can only think of two engines that have failed on us in the 14 years I've been working with Jeff, and both of those were problems with the oil pumps, that we did not catch before hand. They were both very rare issues with oil pumps and the first time we've seen either one. Because of it, we learned what else to look for when tearing them down and cleaning them out. How many shops can tell you they have only had two engine failures out of hundreds built. Not many. Truth is, we are a small shop and ANY failure is hard on us, so we are very anal about what we do so as to avoid failures. Yes it takes us longer to get an engine done, but if the customer doesn't have any problems with it, then it's worth it.

Look at Va68goats knocking issue. That has kept me awake many nights over the past year thinking about and stressing over what could possibly be the issue. Then to find out it was the distributor the whole time was both a bummer and a blessing. There again, a parts failure that no one would have guessed would have failed in a few dyno pulls. But it will get fixed and I can sleep at night now that the riddle is finally solved.

So, like Formula said, we are not bashing anyone, just simply pointing out what was found.

[Formulajones]

Well said Paul. These are all reasons why I go to Paul for engine work. I've used other shops and simply can't find the quality of work and attention to detail that Paul and Jeff perform. Not to mention they are pretty daggum smart too.

[68azbird]

X1000
Paul is fixing a set of heads for an engine I'm building for someone.
Previous shop was a bunch of hacks that used 45 year old 2 piece valves a valve knurler from 1812 and set seat cutter that was cobbled out of a toe nail cutter and set seat pressure to 70 lbs

[Squidward]

Originally Posted by 68azbird

X1000
Paul is fixing a set of heads for an engine I'm building for someone.
Previous shop was a bunch of hacks that used 45 year old 2 piece valves a valve knurler from 1812 and set seat cutter that was cobbled out of a toe nail cutter and set seat pressure to 70 lbs

Got some LOLz out of the last sentence! Toe nail cutter got me...

[gtofreek]

Originally Posted by 68azbird

X1000
Paul is fixing a set of heads for an engine I'm building for someone.
Previous shop was a bunch of hacks that used 45 year old 2 piece valves a valve knurler from 1812 and set seat cutter that was cobbled out of a toe nail cutter and set seat pressure to 70 lbs

That's some funny stuff right there.

[68azbird]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

Well said Paul. These are all reasons why I go to Paul for engine work. I've used other shops and simply can't find the quality of work and attention to detail that Paul and Jeff perform. Not to mention they are pretty daggum smart too.

I have to say in all honesty that the owner of this car brought it to the right guy to get all the work done. Larry does some of the best bodywork and paint and over all car builds of anyone in the USA.
I speak from 30 years of experience of working on all these cars.

[Formulajones]

Thanks Mike!! That means a lot coming from a guy like yourself that builds his own cars and does his own paint work and engine work, and does a very nice job I might add, so thank you for that.

If it weren't for you I would have never met Paul. You took the time to meet, hang out, and explain why Paul is the best machinist/engine builder in Arizona, so thanks for that as well. After experiencing Paul's work first hand and compared to others in Arizona, I have no problem making the 6 hour round trip knowing I have these engines in the best hands.

[gtofreek]

Thanks guys for your confidence in me!

[Steve C.]

And while there get your valve springs frozen.

Carter Cryogenics
www.cartercryo.com

.

[gtofreek]

Thanks for the plug Steve!

[Steve C.]

Your welcome.

And after these years you did it with mine the increased spring durability has been great ! And we monitor them closely for loss of pressure.


.

[GOAT WHORE]

There is a reason I ship my engines from Oregon to Arizona..... Because I know Paul does nothing but the best work!

[Formulajones]

Bearings finally showed up. Made some progress today.

All mains and rods are .002"

Crank end play is .007"
Cam end play is .004"

Pistons are out of the hole .007" so probably end up with a .045" head gasket to keep quench in the sweet spot.

[Formulajones]

And this is why a cam needs to be degreed.

Installed the gear set straight up dot to dot at first to see where we were at and the cam was 4 degrees retarded!!!

I ended up installing it 4 degrees advance and it came in at exactly 106.25 ICL which is perfect for these voodoo lobes. It's ground on a 112 LSA so the cam is 5.75 degrees advanced, not 4 as the timing set would indicate. This also produces the intake lifter rise we were looking for during overlap at TDC with the intake valve .044" higher than the exhaust valve.

Now it's on to installing the other 7 pistons and start buttoning up the short block.

[johnta1]

Installed the gear set straight up dot to dot at first to see where we were at and the cam was 4 degrees retarded!!!

At least it was dot-to-dot and not 18º off.
(2 teeth off from another thread)

[Formulajones]

Actually it was off more than I posted.

At dot to dot I should have had a 108 ICL, as that's where the cam is ground at according to the cam card. But it had 114 ICL!!!

Crazy what you find with these things sometimes.

So I decided to make a big change from the start and moved it 2 keyways for 4 degrees advance. It came in at 106.25 ICL. Technically it should have read 104 ICL according to the cam card so even that setting wasn't what you would have expected, but 106 was actually what we wanted and gave the valve events I was looking for so called it done right there. Technically speaking the 4 degrees I moved it should have shown a 4 degree change on my wheel at 110 ICL but it was 106.25, so that change moved the cam 7.75 degrees!! So one of the keyways is way off retarding the camshaft, and I had to move it way advanced just to get a 106.25 ICL.

If this thing wasn't checked and just tossed together dot to dot, the cam would have been running on a 114 ICL and the engine wouldn't perform like it should, and make most of it's power up high where no one wants to spin one of these things, lol.