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Old 07-14-2020, 06:43 PM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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Default MR1 block questions...

My original plan was to use a factory 455 block for my Twin Turbo build as the funds where not present at the time, however the funds recently came available and the power levels I would be looking at did far exceed most peoples expectations of factory cast 455 block survival, so I decided to go with an MR1 block. I would have gone with the IA block however they did not have a 3.25 journal block available. If they had an aluminum block with 3.25 journals I would have gone with one... Unfortunately in order for me to run an aftermarket block the funds where definitely not their to start over with a new rotating assembly, so I had to get a block that I could run my existing balanced stroker rotating assembly.... Blah blah blah...

So although I do not expect any issues, my question is, what kind of issues "IF ANY" have people been running into with their MR1 blocks? I just dropped the block off at the local machine shop to have him give it a once over and make sure its ready for me to assemble. If there are any key areas I should have him look at or for? I did not see any serial numbers, lot numbers, date codes or anything that could indicate when the block was made. I thought this was strange and at least thought they would mark the blocks so they could verify at least year/month the block was cast, perhaps I just was not looking in the right place?


SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Old 07-15-2020, 08:55 AM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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No news is good news... Hopefully I will be able to start assembling the engine some time next week.

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  #3  
Old 07-15-2020, 11:01 AM
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Did you buy the block from KRE or from a private party? The lack of identifying marks would concern me, I think. I'm not sure, though, what marks it would be reasonable to expect. Why not give KRE a call and see if they can shed any light on it before you have any expensive work done on it.


Good luck with your build.



Jim

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Old 07-16-2020, 08:56 AM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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Originally Posted by twooldgoats View Post
Did you buy the block from KRE or from a private party? The lack of identifying marks would concern me, I think. I'm not sure, though, what marks it would be reasonable to expect. Why not give KRE a call and see if they can shed any light on it before you have any expensive work done on it.


Good luck with your build.



Jim
I purchased it directly from KRE.

Dont get me wrong, I dont expect to have any issues. I have just been thumbing through old post and have seen that some of their earlier castings had some "Flaws"... I guess my concern is that being that I purchased a 3.25" journal main block that is NOT as in demand as the 3" journal blocks, I was just crossing my fingers that this wasn't an undesirable block that was just "laying around"... From a close visual inspection, it looks great.

IA does not even make the 3.25" journal blocks any longer and they where trying to talk me into ditching my current rotating assembly so I could run the 3" journal blocks... In a perfect world where the money tree is in full bloom I would have started with an aftermarket 3" block to begin with.

If KRE did not have the 3.25" block available I would still be building my factory block... So I am feeling better about the build already... the machine shop is going to go through the block and let me know how everything looks. I was just wondering if there where any "CHECK THIS" and "CHECK THAT" from people who had issues...

If all goes well I should be able to start assembly next week.

Thank you for your input.

NICK

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Old 12-05-2020, 12:50 PM
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I know that this post is somewhat old....but can you share any feedback from your machine shop? Did the block need much done to it before assembly?

  #6  
Old 12-05-2020, 04:27 PM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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I know that this post is somewhat old....but can you share any feedback from your machine shop? Did the block need much done to it before assembly?
In all honesty YES. But I must be fair and say up front that KRE was quick to fix one of the major issues I ran into. I have NOT brought the block back to the machine shop YET as they are so backed up that they would not be able to look at my block for weeks/months. And I did not just want it kicking around their shop for that amount of time.

Long story short, I received my MR1 block and took it to my local machine shop. After about 2 weeks at the machine shop the machinist calls me up to ask about the lifter hole oil restrictors... Apparently, the lifter oil holes where never drilled into the block. A quick call to KRE and some photos confirming the holes where not drilled, they sent me a return label and had UPS come pick the block up at my door. About a week later I had the block back with the oil restrictor holes drilled.

I still need to bring the block back so the deck height can be verified and made true if necessary. The deck surface has like 3 visually different surfaces however they dont feel any different to the touch... I have always seen one clean surface on blocks that have been decked. I just appears that there where 3 separate passes of the tool leaving a visual different shade.

I need to get the block back to the machine shop so I can press forward with the build though.

I am not upset about the encounter, I really cant be upset at them as they did as expected and fixed the issue without much question or debate.

As a quality assurance inspector by trade (USAF Aircraft / DoD DCMA) I do feel this should have been caught by their QA person before initially shipping the block... but **** happens and this is why everything should be inspected prior to assembly.

Everything else seems fine. There are some metal burrs that I plan to smooth out around the block but nothing I dont mind doing on my own as part of block prep.

Once I get the block back from the machine shop I plan to post progress as the build progresses.

SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Old 12-06-2020, 01:56 AM
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Brian Baker Brian Baker is offline
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What exactly is your current 3.25" rotating assembly that you're so keen on keeping?

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Old 12-07-2020, 10:00 AM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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What exactly is your current 3.25" rotating assembly that you're so keen on keeping?

Scat 4.5 stroke w/ 3.25 journal crank, Scat H beam rods with CP 4.19 pistons with 40cc dish. Its all ready been completely balanced and ready to install. It was initially intended to go into a factory cast iron 455 block with 10-15lbs boost. I started to get cold feet with running the factory block well outside of its alleged limitations... The plan is to run this set up for drag weeks and power tours so reliability and street-ability is part of the equation, the factory block would have had me constantly worrying if today would be the day.

After committing to the factory cast iron block build and receiving nearly all of the parts to complete it, I ran into some unexpected funds and decided to drop it on a aftermarket block and did not want the additional cost of a new 3" journal crank+balancing. KRE had a 3.25 journal MR1 block available so I decided that was the best way to go from my position.

SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Old 12-07-2020, 11:57 AM
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I would still check deck height on whatever aftermarket block even after squaring up. When I swapped mine from a MR1 to an IA my pistons were 0.010 out and had to get a thicker head gasket.

Most aftermarket blocks even Chevy etc there is going to be some work involved. Casting flashing to remove(check cam tunnels) possibly coolant holes to drill. Mike cam bearing holes too.

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Old 12-07-2020, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AIR RAM View Post
I ran into some unexpected funds and decided to drop it on a aftermarket block and did not want the additional cost of a new 3" journal crank+balancing. KRE had a 3.25 journal MR1 block available so I decided that was the best way to go from my position.

SPEED SAFE, NICK
So....building a $12,000+ engine you didn't want to spend and additional $500 on a 3" crank that would have let you get an aluminum block? And $500 is being generous considering how much you could have sold your crank for.Sometimes it just doesn't compute to me

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  #11  
Old 12-08-2020, 04:47 PM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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So....building a $12,000+ engine you didn't want to spend and additional $500 on a 3" crank that would have let you get an aluminum block? And $500 is being generous considering how much you could have sold your crank for.Sometimes it just doesn't compute to me

Not sure where you fabricate the 500.00 figure. Just because you make up a number in your head and post it on the internet does not make it a fact or even remotely relevant to the topic in question. But hey, Ill play your silly little game.

It will be a minimum of $850.00 for a new crank, plus shipping which would be a good $75.00+ if not much more. Add balancing $250.00-$300.00... ... Minimum an additional $1200.00 to jump into a 3" journal block. Then add the additional cost between Aluminum and iron and we are well near a $2,000.00 cost of admission. Then add the headache of trying to sell a brand new never used, 4.5" 3.25 journal crank to "Low Ballers" who want new stuff for free if I can find a buyer at all. After taking a hit on the sale of the existing crank and then getting railed on the shipping cost, I would be looking at an easy 2,500.00 cost of going the direction you assume is the best course.

All that said, I see nothing wrong with what I have right now... 3.25 main, MR1 with a 4.5" stroke.... It will do everything I need it to do. So if I am ok with it,who are you again?

Without you having all the information its difficult for you to determine what the best course would be. If you are still confused, go ahead and start from the initial post and read... I am more than certain your questions will be answered after actually knowing what the back story is and my reasoning for choosing the MR1 block.

Thank you for your participation...


SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Last edited by AIR RAM; 12-08-2020 at 05:33 PM.
  #12  
Old 12-08-2020, 04:54 PM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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Originally Posted by Skip Fix View Post
I would still check deck height on whatever aftermarket block even after squaring up. When I swapped mine from a MR1 to an IA my pistons were 0.010 out and had to get a thicker head gasket.

Most aftermarket blocks even Chevy etc there is going to be some work involved. Casting flashing to remove(check cam tunnels) possibly coolant holes to drill. Mike cam bearing holes too.
Wow, I was not aware they could be that far off... thank you for the helpful and very useful information!!!

The machine shop had to order a tool that fits his machine in order to measure / deck the Pontiac blocks. Once he has that he will be checking the decks to insure they are both the same heights and correcting any discrepancies if found.

SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Old 12-08-2020, 07:15 PM
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I would guess a 3.25 main mandrel for checking the deck on the line hone machine? I know here only a few shops have those for line boring.

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Old 12-08-2020, 09:18 PM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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My advice trying to run this combination is to pay very close attention to the oiling circuit. I haven't worked with the MR1 specifically, but have built many IA 2's and stock blocks. With the 3.25" main housing bore, there is less block and more hole, if you get what I am saying. That's why everyone prefers the 3" main for high power applications and and a 2.750 would be even better with a good enough crankshaft. Fortunately, you have a Scat crankshaft which has decent main oiling holes and pretty good chamfers. I don't think an Eagle would survive over 6200-6300 RPM with their awful "divot eyebrow" type of main oiling. You didn't state what HP you intend to produce with this engine, so I have to guess. If you intend to make in the 1200 HP range, a Pontiac based oiling system with an accumulator should be OK. IMO you need .0035 main clearance and perfect housing bores to keep it alive. The primary issue with a 3.25" main bearing is bearing speed and heat. You need the extra clearance to keep flushing oil through the mains and remove heat. I think you need to plan to keep your RPM's around 7000-7200. If your planning to make big horsepower, north of 1500 HP, your going to need to upgrade the oiling system with a pump capable of at least double the flow rate of a Pontiac pump. At a very minimum, a Titan pump if your going to stay wet sump or a dry sump system. Good luck with the build.

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Old 12-09-2020, 06:14 AM
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FYI

3.25 cranks can be cut down to 3.00 .... but you would need to run big block Olds thrust bearing and custom spacers/shims...






Kris.

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Old 12-09-2020, 09:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
My advice trying to run this combination is to pay very close attention to the oiling circuit. I haven't worked with the MR1 specifically, but have built many IA 2's and stock blocks. With the 3.25" main housing bore, there is less block and more hole, if you get what I am saying. That's why everyone prefers the 3" main for high power applications and and a 2.750 would be even better with a good enough crankshaft. Fortunately, you have a Scat crankshaft which has decent main oiling holes and pretty good chamfers. I don't think an Eagle would survive over 6200-6300 RPM with their awful "divot eyebrow" type of main oiling. You didn't state what HP you intend to produce with this engine, so I have to guess. If you intend to make in the 1200 HP range, a Pontiac based oiling system with an accumulator should be OK. IMO you need .0035 main clearance and perfect housing bores to keep it alive. The primary issue with a 3.25" main bearing is bearing speed and heat. You need the extra clearance to keep flushing oil through the mains and remove heat. I think you need to plan to keep your RPM's around 7000-7200. If your planning to make big horsepower, north of 1500 HP, your going to need to upgrade the oiling system with a pump capable of at least double the flow rate of a Pontiac pump. At a very minimum, a Titan pump if your going to stay wet sump or a dry sump system. Good luck with the build.

I must irritate that this is intended to be a drag week / power tour car, so reliability on the street is more important than max effort. I plan to make it as reliable as possible and increase power accordingly. So I dont have a magic number that I must hit... it will make what it makes within the limitations of reliability. Cooling systems will be abundant. I will have oil coolers and trans coolers with thermostatic by-bass valves w/ dedicated thermostatic controlled fans and a large triple pass radiator. The goal is to have a cooling system thats able to maintain a set temp no matter what the engine or transmission are doing. Although these systems will add significant weight, its all part of the plan to maintain predictable running temps.

The plan is to run up to 15-20lbs boost on E85. So where ever that takes it will determine the power output. The 72cc E-heads flow over 320cfms and have been ceramic coated combustion chambers and exhaust ports. I am guessing that I will be running 800-900HP pump gas (6-8lbs) and between 1,000-1,200HP on E85 (15-20lbs). At that point I will only run what I can stick to the ground.

Will be running a Luhn Performance Oil pump and pick up. .035 seems like an awful lot for daily driving on the street. I was initially intending to run .025 on both rods and mains. The plan is to target 6500RPMs however I know it could easily take more RPM. This makes for a good topic though... I like the idea of more oil for increased cooling, just not sure if that much clearance is good for a daily driver capable of cruising hundreds of miles a day.

The original plan was to use a factory cast iron 455 block... If I hadn't already had the completed balanced 3.25" rotating assembly I would have gone with a 3" main block... However I do feel that I am definitely better off with the MR1 block over the 455 block.

Thanks for the input....

SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Old 12-09-2020, 09:44 AM
AIR RAM AIR RAM is offline
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Originally Posted by 69GTO View Post
FYI

3.25 cranks can be cut down to 3.00 .... but you would need to run big block Olds thrust bearing and custom spacers/shims...






Kris.
Thanks for the input... Going to a 3" block was definitely taken into consideration however I decided that the 3.25" MR1 block was the best option for my position at the time of making the decision.

SPEED SAFE, NICK

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Old 12-09-2020, 09:50 AM
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I would guess a 3.25 main mandrel for checking the deck on the line hone machine? I know here only a few shops have those for line boring.
Yes, he had several different ones for Ford, Chevy, Chrysler and even several euro cars... but he didn't have anything for the 3.25 Pontiac block.

I only glanced at the machine when he was explaining it to me... however now that you mentioned it, the machine was for align honing.

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Old 12-09-2020, 11:27 AM
mgarblik mgarblik is offline
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Talk to your engine builder at length about the main bearing clearance. .0025 on the rods would probably be OK as a minimum. IMO, .0025 on the mains is too tight, even with 10W-30 oil. If you were making 500-600 HP, that would be fine. 1200+ HP, dozens of black and blue main bearings tell me a different story. If in doubt, run on the loose side. Good luck with the build. This will scare the hell out of you. At 3000+ HP, the only way to make the main bearings live was to run .006-.0065" main bearing clearance on a 3.0" main bearing. The engine will tell you what it takes to make it happy! The learning curve was expensive in our case.

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Old 12-09-2020, 12:02 PM
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I have known several engine builder/race car guys who have run about .004" Main Bearing Clearance with no issues (except that they had to run the 80 psi oil pump spring and cup on their Melling oil pump. These were 600-700 HP 3.25 Journal engines.

Tom V.

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