[TPM]

I just looked at a 1965 "GTO" that is up for sale. The cowl tag on the firewall says it was assembled at the Pontiac, Michigan plant, however, the bottom of the tag shows "5W" but no "N".....should I assume it is not a real GTO?

[NEW64OWNER]

Buy the PHS docs, only way to know

[Jack P.]

5N only appeared on some but not all GTO's. The only way to know for certain is to order the PHS.

[TPM]

I thought ALL GTO's assembled in the Pon & KC plants included the 5N on the cowl tag??

[tempest1964]

Sounds like it would be $65 well spent...

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TPM

I thought ALL GTO's assembled in the Pon & KC plants included the 5N on the cowl tag??

All but 3 at KC to my knowledge.

Tom V.

You need to look at the VIN Number on the inside of the door to find out where it was made.
65-66 and even 64 GTOs assembled and built at Pontiac will be in good shape on the PHS info.

64 GTOs built in KC will not match the PHS information. The PHS info is wrong.
Heard that if you had a 64 KC GTO, PHS would not even send out the 64 paperwork anymore as they acknowledge
due to the work of John V and others that it has errors.

Baltimore cars and California cars not showing the 5N on their Cowl Tags either.

[TPM]

The VIN tag is no longer on the door....but the cowl tag indicates it was made in Pontiac....the title says GTO

[Chris65LeMans]

Originally Posted by TPM

The VIN tag is no longer on the door....but the cowl tag indicates it was made in Pontiac....the title says GTO

I think that's unusual because the 64's and 65's, as many know, were really LeMans' with a GTO option package. A quick Google Search of "1965 GTO window sticker" shows them all called LeMans'.

At any rate; if the VIN number isn't on the door anymore, I'm not sure you'll ever be able to "prove" that car was a GTO.

What does "the PYer crowd's" 64 and 65 GTO's titles say?

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by TPM

The VIN tag is no longer on the door....but the cowl tag indicates it was made in Pontiac....the title says GTO

Why would you want to buy a car without a VIN tag? Walk away quickly.

[Tom Vaught]

Originally Posted by TPM

The VIN tag is no longer on the door....but the cowl tag indicates it was made in Pontiac....the title says GTO

So where did you find this vehicle? What happened to the VIN Tag?
Most states will confiscate any vehicle without a VIN Tag as a stolen vehicle unless you can absolutely prove ownership (from Day 1).

Was this vehicle a race car at some point?

Tom V.

[TPM]

The car is in NJ and yes, I'm obviously hesitant to purchase without the VIN tag...but there is a title that says it's a blue 2 door coupe that matches the car

[NEW64OWNER]

Originally Posted by Old Goat 67

Why would you want to buy a car without a VIN tag? Walk away quickly.

Walk? I wouldn't even look at it once I saw the VIN tag missing

[Jack P.]

The title should just say Pontiac. That really does not matter since without the VIN tag you will first have to prove you are the legal owner, then after doing that you will have to register it as an assembled car and get a new VIN sticker for the door from the SOS. I'm sure you know what that does to the value.

[Keith Seymore]

My car is titled as a Lemans. It was done that way, intentionally, for insurance purposes. I wouldn't put much stock in how it is titled; the ladies at the Secretary of States (Michigan's version of DMV) know way less about this stuff than we do.

The rule is "all" GTOs from Pontiac should have 5N on the cowl tag. Naturally, there are exceptions that can be documented.

Missing VIN tag is definitely suspect. The next step is to try to confirm the physical car actually belongs to the VIN being purported. There will not be a VIN on the engine (engines weren't VIN'd in this time period) and there are no secret VINs elsewhere on the body. The next bet would be to try to verify the secret VIN on the frame rail (top of rail, behind LH rear wheel).

If you had the protecto-plate that would show the engine EUN and the vehicle VIN and would be a way to tie the two together.

The cowl tag can also be a clue generator, as you can decode interior options, body build dates and processing data to see if they match the physical car or the build timing of the VIN.

Obviously not the case here, but if you ever see a car and the final assembly location on the cowl tag does not match the final assembly location in the VIN: that's an instant flaming red flag. Something, either the VIN or the body, has been swapped in that case.

K

[TPM]

Thanks for all of the info and opinions - much appreciated