[glhs#116]

I just can't believe that on page 70 we are finally done on this!! I do feel for Joe's obvious frustrations in this especially since it has been his introduction to the hobby. But I've got to say that Paul has been a stand-up guy in my dealings with him and seems to be standing to it now. I only had a crank done by him but when his supplier packed the bearings poorly and they got marked up in transit Paul replaced them without me asking and without charge to me. I'd have Paul build anything for me.

And that's the other thing.

Here I am on the arse end of the planet doing my own work in the worst conditions. A lot of "big" builders wouldn't even want to touch being involved with me and my living room engine build. Paul put up with piston and rod weight measurements that were done by me in the most unorthodox fashion. He put up with a customer who would never make him much money, was guaranteed to be difficult logistically to deal with, and who could only ever represent a risk to his reputation when I go and screw up something in the build and blame him (potentially).

Paul took it on, anyway. He treated my piddly job with enough seriousness and priority to get it done amongst all the other deadlines. Again, a lot of "bigshot" builders might have buried a piddly job like mine for a year or more. Every time I chased him (though I tend to be polite) he wasn't offended. I really can't say enough good about my dealings with him.

There are a large number of people here that have offered essential and helpful advice and information but there are literally two guys without whom I would not be driving now. Those are Paul and Jay (with a special mention to Cliff who has always helped everyone here for as long as I can remember).

Sam

[PAUL K]

Originally Posted by gtofreek

I just have a few things to say about this.

Everything being offered against me is strictly speculation on all Joe's friends part. Don't get me wrong, I have respect for those guys, I met them and they seem very knowledgeable, and I like them. BUT none of them were here at our shop or took part in any of this build. They came along after the fact so everything they say is simply their opinions. They question whether I even took the engine apart. That's ridiculous. I took this engine completely down. Even took all the pistons off the rods to make sure there were no issues with the pins or pin bushings. I even posted pictures on here of the rods and crank. I didn't want any more problems with this engine. The mistake I made was I measured all the pistons at their gauge point, which just so happens to be about the most structurally strongest point of the skirt. They all measured good. What I FAILED to do was measure the skirt tips. They looked fine and there was nothing that drew attention or concern, but still I should have caught that. My mistake. At least my mistakes are few and far between, but I am not perfect.
The idea that someone put out there that I was trying to hide the skirt damage by Scotchbriting them is about the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Scotchbrite will not fix a bad skirt. If I was trying to scam Joe or hide something I would have just bought a new piston and no one would have ever known any different. I'm not a scammer, and I stand behind my work.
Fact of the matter is anytime I am putting used pistons back into any engine, I am not going to put them back in dirty and carboned up. So I clean them in the solvent tank with a Scotchbrite pad to get the carbon off. So now this is criminal? I then use a fine bristled SS brush to clean the friction reduction grooves on pistons like these. Once they are de-carboned, I give them 3-4 strokes each direction in an "X" pattern on the skirts with the Scotchbrite pad to help hold oil on them. Been doing it for over 20 years. To think I was trying to hide something is just stupid non-sense.

Also, some speculate that the skirt got damaged when the rod bearing went bad and the piston hit the head. Two things wrong with that.

1. The rod bearing would have had to have spun the lower shell up into the upper part of the rod. That did not happen. It never spun a bearing. It burned the bearing up, and it started to stick to the crank and it blackened the rod as the bearing got damaged. The crank wasn't even chewed up and it's a stock cast crank. It just had black streaks on it, so I replaced the crank with another one, along with a new rod. The piston never hit the head. Also, that would have left a mark on the head if it did, but it did not. Plus the bearing shell would have had to have worn down to less than .020" thick and if that happened, it would have spun. As soon as we heard it start knocking, we shut it down.

2. When you hurt a rod bearing, you do not send pieces into the intake manifold. What hurt this piston was something non-metallic going down the intake and into #5 cylinder. From there it got pinched between the piston and the corner of the combustion chamber hard enough to put a dent about .020" deep in the forged piston. It then banged the piston and head two more times only much lighter as the first hit probably broke it up some. That initial hit is what cocked the piston in the bore and pushed that skirt in. I think any knowledgeable engine person would agree with that. Then, considering the piston goes up and down the cylinder dozens of times per second at even very low speeds, it doesn't take but a second or two for it to pound the skirt even further inward. I say non-metallic because there is no other damage done to the bore, or no dings in the chamber or valves. If it was metallic, all those things would be dinged up. Anyone who does this stuff for a living can attest to that.

Some say it's awful coincidental that it was #5 piston that was damaged and that's the same bearing that went out. Not really, that's only a 1 in 8 chance. That's really pretty good odds. You want coincidental, I'll give you coincidental.
My dad grew up in Iowa, but in his older age, moved to Utah. Meets a women in Utah and they get married. About 6 months later they are talking about stuff and turns out they both grew up in Des Moines, Iowa. Turns out her parents bought my dads parents house from them and when she was a young girl moved into and grew up in that same house my dad grew up in and just moved out of. This was 50 some odd years before! To top it off, her birthday is the same day as my moms, only a different year! This is a 100% true story. Now that's what you call coincidental. If that could happen, something falling into #5 cylinder is easy peezy.

So now the question becomes when did this piece of whatever go down the intake.
Joe says it must have happened here at our shop because as soon as it started, it knocked. That's understandable for him to think that way, he is new to this all and doesn't know about engines. Can't blame him for that.

BUT, lets look at this from another perspective.

That piece could have fell into the intake here, but keep in mind, between Jeff and myself, we have over 60 years experience doing this. We know exactly what happens to an engine when something goes down the intake besides fuel and air. We take precautions to make sure this does not happen. Could we still have accidentally dropped something in there without knowing? Sure. Sh*t happens.
But it is just as easy and entirely possible that something fell in when Joe and friends or the shop that got it running were putting this all together. Something could have been stuck to the bottom of the carburetor and fell in, or any other way, something could have accidentally fell in. Then the first time they crank it over to start it, it goes into #5 cylinder and hurts the piston, and as soon as the engine starts, it knocks. But you see, no one wants to think it could have been them that did this, so the blame goes to the engine builder, in this case, me. Fact of the matter is we will never know when it happened, so in this case, Joe can be the victim, and I will be the bad guy and take the blame and pay for it even though I could just as easily be the victim here.

You people in the lynch mob need to consider this before you go throwing a rope around my neck and stringing me up from the nearest Oak tree. Remember, many innocent men were strung up by lynch mobs in the 1870's without any evidence of those persons guilt, only suspicions.

Seems plausible.... Except for the part about Iowa

[Holeshot71]

Originally Posted by PAUL K

Seems plausible.... Except for the part about Iowa

LOL.. that's funny!
Glad to hear the hear this was FINALLY figured out. Hopefully this will get resolved where everybody is satisfied because life is too short... I would be willing to donate $20.00 towards some beer... and a smokey burnout!!

[OCMDGTO]

GREAT TO SEE THIS CAR FINALLY BEING DRIVEN! Lots of possibilities on what started this, no reason to throw Paul under the bus (& I don't know either of these guys).

[mgarblik]

Paul, In my attempted explanation of what caused a piston skirt to collapse, I didn't know anything about something getting into the #5 cylinder. That could have been in the nearly 1400 posts somewhere, but I missed it. I also thought the bearing failure somewhere along the line was more serious and since I know you like a tight quench, I could see the piston contacting the head in a failure situation and collapsing a skirt. Your explanation makes just as much sense and you were there! When I began building engines decades ago, pistons came in a box with the nominal size on the box only, not actual measured sizes. It was up to the builder 100% to measure each piston in several places, do all kinds of math and averages and either hone each cylinder to the piston or hone to an average. Cast pistons were usually +- .0015 through a set and forged .003. As you know even today, forged custom pistons are still kind of all over the map. It's very unfortunate you guys and the engine owner got bit by this series of events. There are always a few rock throwers, experts chiming in from the sidelines as other's struggle. It's just more public with the internet and message boards. I doubt very seriously you would be in business for decades and have a reputation where people are willing to send their engines from all over the country to have your shop work on them. So to implicate that without a public forum you would have washed your hands of this engine is unfair IMO. Again, WE ALL MAKE MISTAKES. The shop I have worked out of for 30 years 5 years ago had 8 of the 10 top qualifiers in NHRA Stock and Super Stock at the US Nationals and is a builder of Australian Pro Stock engines they ship back and forth all year. 2 man shop. Mistakes are still made, few and far between. When they happen, just like this Pontiac, the problem is eventually found and corrected.
One of the worst I had happen that relates to this Pontiac, happened on the dyno. We had the jam nut that holds the air temperature sensor in the Superflow air hat vibrate loose and fall through the carburetor of a new engine on it's 3rd. or 4th pull. It bounced all through the engine, breaking 2 sleeves, bending valves and cracked a head. Lots of time and money lost because of a small jam nut. It was about the size of a car radio stem nut.
Personally, this whole drama should do more positive good for your business in the long run. If I didn't do all my own work, your shop would be on my short list. Take care.

[Va68goat]

OCMDGTO,
Nobody threw Paul under the bus. Lets get that part straight right now. Originally I never mentioned the failed dyno pull on the forum because I know mistakes happen. I know Paul is a good guy and builds a great product. From the day of the failed dyno pull, I have handled (and continue to handle this) better than a majority of people to include guys on this forum. When a $7,800 motor costs you $12,175, anyone would be upset. There were times when Paul and I both lost our cool but at the end of the day, it was great that he came to Virginia but it was just as great that I allowed him to stay at my house. I think we both had a good time getting to know one another. Paul met my family, friends and half of my neighborhood that has been walking by my house for the last two years watching me try to get this motor fixed. So Paul and I both handled this the way it should have been handled and anything Paul and I work out will not be shared with anyone on this forum.

Funny story, I see Paul standing on the side of my house taking pictures of my backyard. I thought he was taking pictures of the pond. I say "Paul, what the hell are you taking pictures of"? Paul says "These trees, we don't have these trees in Arizona". I don't know if Paul was more impressed with the trees or grass but that was funny as hell. When Paul found out that I have a Long John Silvers near my house, I thought he was going to stay another week! Hahahaha

[Formulajones]

So glad you set that straight Paul, and for doing all that you did. It shows what kind of guy you really are and the stand up work you guys do at the shop. I am however disappointed just as you are Paul at the forum here and several people in particular that threw you under the bus without knowing really any of the back story and what you've done to this point, let alone know who you are as a person and what you guys stand for. That is uncalled for and unfortunate, but not surprising.
This whole deal unfolding on the forum here should do nothing but encourage people to deal with Paul, and my self and others I know that have first hand experience with Paul will continue to support Paul with business as usual.

Excellent work Paul, you went above and beyond what most any other shop would do that I've had experience with.

Now get out there and enjoy that engine Joe.

[i82much]

I haven't paid a ton of attention but it sure looks like both the customer and the engine builder conducted themselves like reasonable adults and as a consequence everything worked out in the end. A lesson for all of us.

[Va68goat]

Formulajones,

Good to see you're back! I, along with many people on this forum, think that it was great that Paul came to Virginia and addressed the problem. It was the right thing to do. In the same token and spirit, most would say I handled this as well as Paul did. Unfortunately Paul and I threw jabs at each other earlier in the process and that is expected. We were able to move past that and the problem was addressed and fixed. That's what adults do! Having this situation play out on the forum benefitted me, Paul and other forum members. Paul should be applauded for sticking it out and standing by his work product. I'm pretty sure there are forum members that have experienced bad builders that don't stand by their work. In this specific case and situation, the right thing was done by both parties involved and the end result was what it should be. I got a great motor and Paul gets credit for building yet another bad ass motor that he stood behind till the end.

[72projectbird]

What a mess.

Im glad it's resolved for the OPs sake. Hopefully it doesn't sour him on Pontiacs.

[OCMDGTO]

Wasn't directed at you VA68. There's a beer in my fridge w your name on it if you ever make it to OC. Hope to see your car in person at some point

[Va68goat]

72projectbird,

I appreciate that. I don't quit too easily and I follow through with everything that I start and everything that I say I'm going to do. I'm already thinking about what else I could do to this car. The two things that I'm thinking about is suspension and A/C. I love this car. It's not going anywhere!

[Va68goat]

OCMDGTO,

Appreciate that. I see you're not too far away. Grivera has told me about a nice car cruise that happens there. I'd like to make it up for that sometime and I'll be happy to have that beer!

[pastry_chef]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

several people in particular that threw you under the bus without knowing really any of the back story and what you've done to this point, let alone know who you are as a person and what you guys stand for

I missed the throwing under the bus part.
I think anyone in their right mind could agree the root cause should have been remedied when the owner paid the long distance shipping bill back and then the second dyno. The pistons were removed from their bores? If not, why not?

[grivera]

I believe the spun bearing comment originated from post #784

Originally Posted by gtofreek

First off, Joe did NOT get charged for fixing the engine after the bearing spun. Not sure how that came into belief. #5 rod bearing was eaten up. The heat transferred into #6 rod although #6 bearing was fine.

Versus today’s post:

Originally Posted by gtofreek

1. The rod bearing would have had to have spun the lower shell up into the upper part of the rod. That did not happen. It never spun a bearing.

[ponjohn]

The outcome of this thread is fantastic. There have been other discrepancy threads and they went sideways on post #3, let alone 71 pages.

Well done.

[chiphead]

Congrats to all involved. Hopefully the car can get back to ruining tires. I want to see some smoky gopro footage of this thing getting crossed up.

So where did the damaged piston go? It should be on Joe's desk as a serious conversation piece.

[chiphead]

Originally Posted by chiphead

Confirmation of piston material is helpful. My motor made a dull double knock noise at TDC and BDC, especially when engine wasn't warmed up. Since (most? all?) 8 cylinders were doing it, it had a rhythmic double rap that I got used to. I just didn't hammer on it before it warmed up. When water temps were up, the noise would be hard to hear, kinda like Sirrotica said.

I'm not saying this is piston slap for sure. One of those videos Joe posted had a double knock sound on the driver's side that sure mimics what my motor would do, just louder.

snip.....

Just sayin...... *GRIN EMOJI*

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by pastry_chef

I missed the throwing under the bus part.
I think anyone in their right mind could agree the root cause should have been remedied when the owner paid the long distance shipping bill back and then the second dyno. The pistons were removed from their bores? If not, why not?

Read post 1400. Paul explained everything you need to know right there.

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Va68goat

Formulajones,

Good to see you're back! I, along with many people on this forum, think that it was great that Paul came to Virginia and addressed the problem. It was the right thing to do. In the same token and spirit, most would say I handled this as well as Paul did. Unfortunately Paul and I threw jabs at each other earlier in the process and that is expected. We were able to move past that and the problem was addressed and fixed. That's what adults do! Having this situation play out on the forum benefitted me, Paul and other forum members. Paul should be applauded for sticking it out and standing by his work product. I'm pretty sure there are forum members that have experienced bad builders that don't stand by their work. In this specific case and situation, the right thing was done by both parties involved and the end result was what it should be. I got a great motor and Paul gets credit for building yet another bad ass motor that he stood behind till the end.

I haven't been here and wasn't aware Paul flew out until he text me the night before he left. Told me what it was and how he fixed it. Friggin awesome of him to do that, and nice of you to let him stay at your place to keep his cost down. You can be assured you have one of the best Pontiac engines in your area that will give you years of trouble free fun. I've never worked with anyone that is as particular about his machine work and detail as Paul and Jeff. Taking a tour of their shop and talking to them in person explaining why they do things the way they do would convince you or anyone else that you made the right choice. Awesome couple of guys