[comanchefirebird]

I am looking for any information regarding power steering cooler lines on 69 Firebirds. I have found a few bits of information when searching previous discussions, but I still have some unanswered questions.

I am working on a 69 Comanche Firebird convertible, 400HO M21 car. It came with the option "N41 -Power Steering Variable Ratio, order code 501"

Is the cooler line part of this option?
If not what option is a steering cooler line associated with?
Is this cooler line and the attaching brackets for it reproduced by any company? (I can not find it in PY or Ames catalogues)

There are some nice pictures of the cooler line from the 500K 69 Trans Am recently listed on ebay. However if someone could post a picture of the lines around the power steering pump, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks for any and all help
Steve

[einstein]

Cooler line feature is determined by rear axle ratio and drivetrain. There's a page in the Factory Service Manual which describes which drivetrain combo got it, for all body styles.

[comanchefirebird]

Thanks for the info Glen

My car is L74 400HO, M21 close ratio Muncie, 3.90 posi car.

I'll try to find the page you refer to in a Service manual

Best regards,
Steve

[Held for Ransom]

PY carries them, online states in stock, $29.00.

1969 Pontiac Service Manual, page 9-46.

[MikeNoun]

Just to add a little something here.....

I had ordered a p/s line from Ames Perf last year for $49. The line came in an unopened clear bag, with a seperate compartment for the 2 clips. Unfortunately, there was only 1 clip, and it had surface rust! Very disapppointing that the warehouse picker didn't notice the rust on the part, considering it was in a clear bag. At any rate, I decided to simply return the line because.....

I found the exact same line, with the same Ames part number, from Classic Industries for $29. The CI catalog showed the line with 2 clips (just like the photo shown above). I received the new line, and it was packaged exactly the same as the Ames version (same supplier). Lo and behold, it also had 1 clip. Grrrr....

So be cautious, and before you order one, have them actually pull the part, count the clips, and make sure there's no rust!

As a sidenote, I've seen some show winning 69 Birds and T/A's where the clips and hold down screws were painted black. I've also seen some other show winning Birds where the clips and screws were natural metal. I have seen 1 or 2 old 1969-era photos (I believe in one of the Firebird books), and even though those photos are b&w, it's obvious the clips and screws were natural metal color because they are a completely different shade than the radiator. Not sure if the clips and screws may have been painted at one plant and not the other, or if perhaps there was a production line change to use painted clips and screws to prevent rust.

[Bjorn]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Just to add a little something here.....

I had ordered a p/s line from Ames Perf last year for $49. The line came in an unopened clear bag, with a seperate compartment for the 2 clips. Unfortunately, there was only 1 clip, and it had surface rust! Very disapppointing that the warehouse picker didn't notice the rust on the part, considering it was in a clear bag.


.

warehouse pickers dont even look....(my experience as a formergen mgr of a dealership...)
we often got wrong parts...warehouse picker doesnt even check if its the right part! as long as its in a hole in a bin where it is supposed to be..he picks it...

the worst part is if its a "special order part".....

imagine this scenario,,
customer has a problem ,needs a special order part...you order it by part no, lets say a brake booster (just as an example), you get the ordered part number in from the warehouse ,parts dept tells service they got a part in for customer XXX, they call customer, set up an app`t...he takes car in early morning ,gets a loaner or rental, goes off to work...

later mechanic gets car...goes to parts dept and picks up part...gets it (still packaged and with customers name on it) goes to the car ,opens box, finds an alternator , for instance...
now , service got to call customer, say you`re sorry , make another order for the angry customer, hope to get correct part next time! nobody checks, they just see order no`s , names...but what the part IS ,or looks like...naaah...

[MikeNoun]

Bjorn, I hear ya! I guess I was just a bit disappointed in that Ames Performance is a Pontiac only resto house, so I highly doubt they have even 100 orders a day, as opposed to Summit or jeg's, which probably have 1000-2000 orders a day (just guessing here). I've seen other local resto houses around me that deal in Chevy parts, and they usually have 1 picker, or sometimes the order taker doubles as a picker. I'm sure Ames works the same way, and an outfit as large as Classic Industries probably has 2 or 3 pickers.

The problem here is with the supplier. It's obvious this p/s colling line supplier has major problems with the quality (and packaging) of this p/s line. When Ames, CI, or even PY has a part returned that has a defect, they should be checking their shelves! I hate to be pessimistic about this, but I believe what happens is that when a vendor gets a return, they simply return the part to their parts bin for the next unlucky customer.

I guess we've all heard the standard "Gee, we've never had a complaint about this part before", but I've experienced (and have observed) dozens and dozens of examples of vendors pushing defective parts out to their customers because the supplier is out of business, so the vendor has to eat the cost of the part. They pass it on the the customer. Some of the defective parts may get returned, but some may not. Eventually, all the defective parts will be sold.

Remember, most of the parts we see for our old cars are not produced in "Edelbrock-like" assembly plants. Most of our parts come from some guy's basement or garage, where they tool up a batch of 50 at a time, then sell to a supply house. If a part is defective, the vendor has little chance getting the supplier to take the defective units back, and tool up new ones. These are small time operators.

[67 455 Bird ragtop]

You mean you can't use an alternator for a brake booster ????

[trishieldchief]

The question I would like to know is the following:

1.Are the PS cooler line option only associated with the N41 Quick ratio steering Box?

2.Was the N41 Quick Ratio steering box optional on any 69 Firebird regardless of what engine was between the fenderwells?

I too looked at 69 Service manual and it does not give this detail information.

Hope someone can chime in, as I am very curious as to how this PS Cooler line package was offered for 69 Firebirds.

Thanks Rich

[einstein]

There is no cooler on manual steering.

Power Steering in 69 Firebirds were ALL variable ratio, it was introduced in the 67 Cadillacs, and in mid-year on 68 400 Sport Option Firebirds. Camaro in 69 did not get variable ratio as far as I know, it had a straight ratio like the 67-8 Firebirds (except the late 68 400 cars). I don't think any Camaro got the cooler.

The PS cooler was installed in Grand Prix and Full-sized pontiacs, again determined by drivetrain configuration. In those cars, it was mounted below the radiator. Also, it was not a separate option, it just came with the VR-PS with whichever drivetrain called for it.

That's why you were directed to the Service Manual. It's all in there, but in the diagrams, in the small print and thin lines of the technical drawings. You must have missed it.

[trishieldchief]

Glenn
Thanks for your feedback.
So, if all 69 firebirds that were ordered with PS all recieved N41 quick ratio steering box than how come all 69 Firebirds do not have PS steering cooler lines?
In my day I have looked many 69 birds and I don't recall any cars that had PS cooler lines?
Again,it comes back to how was PS cooler lines sold /packaged/offered by Pontiac ?
As a separate option ,or only on 400 cars and TA's ordered with PS?

[MikeNoun]

There are several original photos that exist showing the p/s cooling line on 69 Trans Am's and Firebirds, so it was definately a production item. As to why they were seldom seen, my guess is that when 69 Birds were daily drivers throughout the 1970's and 1980's, garages and shops probably discarded the p/s line when they installed a new radiator. The p/s line and clips would have been rather rusty on a daily driver (the line was unpainted), and garages probably told customers it would be a dealer item they would have to order, it would cost around $15, etc. (just guessing). The mechanics probably told customers that the line could be easily bypassed, it wouldn't affect the p/s at all, and that was that.

The assembly manual lists:

L67 w/3.36 gear & above D/C60
W66 w/3.36 & above D/C60.L67.M40

On the actual assembly diagram, the caption for the cooling line states:

8 cyl - C60 w/2.93 axle & above, 3.36 axle and above D/C60
6 cyl - w/C60, 3.36 axle and above D/C60

Glen, just a guess, but could the p/s cooling line have been used with the gear ratio factor listed above, in combination with the car having F70-14's? Seems like the extra width of the tires (on the 14x7's) may have necessitated the use of a p/s cooling line. This may also explain why GP's had the p/s cooling line, yet 69 GTO's (14x6 rims) did not.

[trishieldchief]

Mike
You are correct Pontiac Service manual is kind of all over the place on PS Cooler lines,
6 cyl to V8's.
I was hoping someone would know on this forum if PS cooler lines were optional on N41 Quick ratio steering boxes or just available or standard to certain cars so equipped with lower rear axle gear ratio's?

[limejudge69]

FWIW-I recently parted a 69 Grand Prix with the P/S cooler line. The car was a 400 car with A/C and a 3.23 open rear end. Mike Noun is correct in that the line/clips were very rusty and not saveable. The car was nothing special, but did have the P/S cooler line. I still have the power steering pump.

[Old Goat Racer]

In 1991 I bought a 69 Firebird, OHC 6 cyl. P-glide. It still had the P.S. cooling lines (across the top of the raditor). I installed a 455-400 turbo. Sold the car but still have the cooling lines........somewhere.

[steveK]

I had thought all the 69 power steering cooling loop hose clamps were the pinch type? I was unaware they had the screw type clamps only on replacements. Spent allot of time reinstalling the pinch type clamps on my car and was the only clamps I ever saw.

[MikeNoun]

Steve, the pinch clamps are the correct ones. This was probably another reason for why we seldom saw 69 Birds (and Grand Prix's) that still had their p/s cooler lines intact over the years. You can't get the pinch clamps off once they were installed.

In the 1970's, most mechanical work (once the car was out of warranty) was performed by your local gas station or auto repair shop. If a mechanic really wanted to keep the p/s cooler line, they would have had to cut the rubber hoses off, which would have made the lines too short. They would have then have to install new hoses and use worm clamps. Another added cost that they probably couldn't justify to the customer, especially when they could simply bypass the line for free.

Because I don't have the tool to do pinch clamps, and I don't like the look of worm clamps, I opted for a couple fuel injection clamps. Doesn't look too bad, but it's not correct.

[Cammer-6]

I have the tool to crimp the one piece clamps.
I also have the special tool to make the barbed ends.

[trishieldchief]

Cammer
Where did you get tool to crimp those PS clamps?

[Tom-Brandl]

Cammer-6,

any pics how these crimped one piece clamps will look when produced?