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Old 05-20-2020, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by grivera View Post
Were the e-heads being advertised as new?
Yes all are new.

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  #22  
Old 05-20-2020, 07:34 PM
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Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint View Post
I've had my eye on the Speedmaster heads since Speedway Motors first started selling them. Unfortunately, the CR on a 455 with 72cc heads is over the edge for pump gas. The other thing that bothered me was the Speedmaster Oldsmobile heads are less in demand (assumed) and sell for nearly half the price of the Pontiac. Just rubs me the wrong way. Cost of manufacture is no different, minimum run size no different, R&D costs are amortized over expected sales (I would expect less sales volume for Olds than Pontiac ... maybe I'm wrong?) and inventory carrying costs are the same … why would the Olds heads be cheaper?
I live in Mich and I use 72cc heads on my 455 motors without problems.
Might have something to do with the cams I use?

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Old 05-20-2020, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post
Yes all are new.

GT.
were the eheads the later heart-shaped chambers? If so, that was a smoking deal.

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  #24  
Old 05-21-2020, 03:19 AM
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Originally Posted by blueghoast View Post
I live in Mich and I use 72cc heads on my 455 motors without problems.
Might have something to do with the cams I use?

GT.
How?

Per Wallace Racing Calculator w. 4.30 gasket bore dia.:

Your displacement is 464.62 CID
The Compression Ratio is: 11.77


No way that should work on pump gas even with aluminum heads.

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Old 05-21-2020, 07:28 AM
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I'd go USA made vs offshore.

Was just on the phone with a customer yesterday who was going back thru his SBC build where he used Speedmaster heads on it about 4 years ago. He logged about 6000 miles and the valve guides are GONE. He said otherwise it ran fine for most of that time until they got so loose it started missing and sucking down a lot of oil.......

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  #26  
Old 05-21-2020, 11:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
The law of supply and demand is actually an economic theory that was popularized by Adam Smith in 1776.


.
Gee. As a degreed Industrial Engineer with 40 years experience in the logistics industry including controlled climate facilities and process design, construction and project management for Mars Candy Co. and Brown & Williamson Tobacco, I never heard of this. Thank you for enlightening me with your Wikipedia search results. You must be smart.

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Old 05-21-2020, 12:32 PM
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Posted.... "Its what the market will bear, the manufacture needs the volume enabled by that price point to justify the costs associated with maintaining the product line"

I just posted with a related tid bit for interest. Nothing more, nothing else.




.

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Old 05-21-2020, 12:53 PM
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I have the old style 87 cc e-heads on a 505, 10:1 for street use. Runs cool, runs hard, no complaints.

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Old 05-21-2020, 01:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve C. View Post
Posted.... "Its what the market will bear, the manufacture needs the volume enabled by that price point to justify the costs associated with maintaining the product line"

I just posted with a related tid bit for interest. Nothing more, nothing else.
It was a flippant, off-handed remark.

You said the pricing was a matter of supply and demand. Now you're saying it is merely 'market pricing" and supply-side economics? Gee. Even I can understand the larger issue of amortization of developmental and small run costs in establishment of the pricing.

So where do cost accounting and economies of scale factor into the laws of supply/demand? They don't. It has nothing to do with Push vs. Pull supply side economics and everything to do with the fundamentals of manufacturing and cost accounting.

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  #30  
Old 05-21-2020, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint View Post
It was a flippant, off-handed remark.



You said the pricing was a matter of supply and demand. Now you're saying it is merely 'market pricing" and supply-side economics? Gee. Even I can understand the larger issue of amortization of developmental and small run costs in establishment of the pricing.



So where do cost accounting and economies of scale factor into the laws of supply/demand? They don't. It has nothing to do with Push vs. Pull supply side economics and everything to do with the fundamentals of manufacturing and cost accounting.


So what is the answer? A vast conspiracy against the Pontiac community?


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  #31  
Old 05-21-2020, 03:15 PM
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No one asks the manufacturers WHY our brand of heads exceed by sometimes twice the price of other brands that don't sell nearly as many units. If I had a connection to the manufacturers, I'd be asking why that is. If there's a logical explanation, then by all means explain it to us. If there's not, then lower the prices. I want a set of aluminum heads, and have for a long time, I can't justify the price to myself though, and have held off buying any for that reason.

I've said before on PY, I would never expect the Pontiac heads to be as cheap as a SBC, or even a BBC, but c'mon, I doubt that olds and AMC together sell as many units as Pontiac does. Just for grins, how many dyed in the wool, AMC and olds enthusiasts do you know? I know two olds guys, and no AMC guys.

I believe that Edelbrock has made their investment back as far as Pontiac is concerned, and they have had one major revision in the Pontiac heads since the inception, heart shaped chambers, which KRE came out with first. Edelbrock updated theirs because the competition on upped them. If not for KRE, would Edelbrock ever have changed the chamber shape? They don't invest much R&D in Pontiac heads.

They got on the D port bandwagon because KRE was getting every sale of aluminum D ports, they saw they were losing a ton of sales to KRE.

Edelbrock doesn't lead the way very often in firsts for Pontiac, most times some other company makes the investment, does the R&D and opens the market, and Edelbrock follows the lead.

I'm not impressed with how Edelbrock has treated the Pontiac community over the last 50 years, maybe I'm off base, but if I am, then someone enlighten me as to why I should think better of them.

Big fish in a little pond is the scenario I think of, we should be grateful they have even acknowledged we even exist? Not me, I'll vote with my wallet, so far it's closed, and I'm voting NO.

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  #32  
Old 05-21-2020, 04:02 PM
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Geezzzz... it wasn't meant nor intended to be a flippant remark toward YOU or regarding the subject itself ! I just found it was interesting the concept goes back over 100 years. Onward thru the fog.


.

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  #33  
Old 05-21-2020, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sirrotica View Post
No one asks the manufacturers WHY our brand of heads exceed by sometimes twice the price of other brands that don't sell nearly as many units. If I had a connection to the manufacturers, I'd be asking why that is. If there's a logical explanation, then by all means explain it to us. If there's not, then lower the prices. I want a set of aluminum heads, and have for a long time, I can't justify the price to myself though, and have held off buying any for that reason.

I've said before on PY, I would never expect the Pontiac heads to be as cheap as a SBC, or even a BBC, but c'mon, I doubt that olds and AMC together sell as many units as Pontiac does. Just for grins, how many dyed in the wool, AMC and olds enthusiasts do you know? I know two olds guys, and no AMC guys.

I believe that Edelbrock has made their investment back as far as Pontiac is concerned, and they have had one major revision in the Pontiac heads since the inception, heart shaped chambers, which KRE came out with first. Edelbrock updated theirs because the competition on upped them. If not for KRE, would Edelbrock ever have changed the chamber shape? They don't invest much R&D in Pontiac heads.

They got on the D port bandwagon because KRE was getting every sale of aluminum D ports, they saw they were losing a ton of sales to KRE.

Edelbrock doesn't lead the way very often in firsts for Pontiac, most times some other company makes the investment, does the R&D and opens the market, and Edelbrock follows the lead.

I'm not impressed with how Edelbrock has treated the Pontiac community over the last 50 years, maybe I'm off base, but if I am, then someone enlighten me as to why I should think better of them.

Big fish in a little pond is the scenario I think of, we should be grateful they have even acknowledged we even exist? Not me, I'll vote with my wallet, so far it's closed, and I'm voting NO.
Who knows on cost.... most poncho fans love performance. Edelbrock has known we will pay - hence the prices.

And I'm 100% w/ you on the Edel dports. Just not needed by us....the guy in the garage making power. BUT....KRE's competitors needed them..Butler, ect. Butler won't/cannot sell KRE stuff. They compete. Probably main reason why they made heads we already had. - And I use Butler - great guys and great product. I would likely never buy the Ehead dports...

I'm glad KRE and Speedmaster, etc are pushing Edelbrock w/ competitive products.

  #34  
Old 05-21-2020, 09:31 PM
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I bought Edelbrock 87cc round ports after EXTENSIVE research. I read posts here, GTO forums, Facebook groups and two friends experience. I was very happy with my setup on the engine stand and I am sure I will be even happier with it in the car

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Old 05-21-2020, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NeighborsComplaint View Post
How?

Per Wallace Racing Calculator w. 4.30 gasket bore dia.:

Your displacement is 464.62 CID
The Compression Ratio is: 11.77


No way that should work on pump gas even with aluminum heads.
Well it does and I've run close to 13:00:1 without issues
And both sets of them heads had the CNC combustion chambers.
Start searching guy's they are out there.

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  #36  
Old 05-21-2020, 10:38 PM
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Should've posted in different treads.
The heads I mentioned had the CNC chambers.

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  #37  
Old 05-21-2020, 10:57 PM
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Since this is the street section, I think it applies. If you don't want to run tube headers, for all the reasons we already know, you are locked-in to Edelbrock D ports or Kauffman aluminum heads. There are allot of Pontiac customers in that group. Long branch round port manifolds have been unavailable and out of stock for over two years with no sign of coming back to market. So that eliminates all the other aluminum heads including the CV1's and the Ram Air V stuff. So the street guys are really stuck. Round tube headers suck in most true street applications and you can make 600 HP without them. Edelbrock and Kauffman are smart enough to know all this and price their products accordingly. That's why once again, I BEG for iron replacement heads that would cost less than half as much to make and bring the cost of the aluminum heads down because a large vacuum would be filled by them. Chevy, Ford and Mopar all have dozens of aftermarket head options in iron and it has an effect on aluminum head prices as well. My crazy out of the box observations.

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Old 05-21-2020, 11:23 PM
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Originally Posted by mgarblik View Post
Since this is the street section, I think it applies. If you don't want to run tube headers, for all the reasons we already know, you are locked-in to Edelbrock D ports or Kauffman aluminum heads. There are allot of Pontiac customers in that group. Long branch round port manifolds have been unavailable and out of stock for over two years with no sign of coming back to market. So that eliminates all the other aluminum heads including the CV1's and the Ram Air V stuff. So the street guys are really stuck. Round tube headers suck in most true street applications and you can make 600 HP without them. Edelbrock and Kauffman are smart enough to know all this and price their products accordingly. That's why once again, I BEG for iron replacement heads that would cost less than half as much to make and bring the cost of the aluminum heads down because a large vacuum would be filled by them. Chevy, Ford and Mopar all have dozens of aftermarket head options in iron and it has an effect on aluminum head prices as well. My crazy out of the box observations.
WOW That kinda makes sence when you put it like that.

GT

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Old 05-22-2020, 08:05 AM
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Since this is the street section, …. So the street guys are really stuck. Round tube headers suck in most true street applications and you can make 600 HP without them.

I do not believe I have ever seen a 600hp Pontiac street engine that did not have headers.

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Old 05-22-2020, 09:38 AM
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Well they are cheaper than 409 heads. I can't imagine Edelbrock will sell enough for R&D costs but I do see a few mpre folks building with them . The good HP #690 and 583 heads go for more than that. Z-11s like "real" RAV prices.
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