[Steve C.]

And they can vary all over the map new ...........

Skip Fix bought a Rimac spring tester and checked three sets of new valve springs. The tester was calibrated with the special spring. A set of Manley springs. Two sets of Comps, 917 & 943.

Manleys had a low of 268 and a high of 310 seat. Comp 943s about a 20 lbs spread and the 917s about a 12 spread. The Manley and 943s where way over their advertised seat pressure.

.

[Fastmonty]

Guys, I just went through this too... a Lunati HR blew up on me, with around 2000 miles on them. I ended up filming the entire deconstruction and rebuild process on YouTube. The lifter sheared off, and ate some of the Cam. Here's the video where I found it... go to the 19:00 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/y_iPx4CiMTg

That said, I'm still not an expert at this, but have learned a TON from this incident. In my case, the anti-rotate bar pin broke, the lifter spun 90 degrees and the cam sheered the Roller off. (Here's the video me fishing the roller out of the pan, https://youtu.be/r_LCmaS8nis) I originally got these from Butler Performance, over 5 years ago. They talked to Lunati, who talked to Morel, who makes them... they agreed with my prognosis, and refunded my money! That's awesome customer support right there. Anyway, I upgraded to Johnson Lifters. Per Butler, they said all of the manufacturers who make HR retrofit lifters have failed for one reason, or another, but by far the most reliable they've seen, come from Johnson.

Now all that being said, I have two takeaways. One, HR's should not be making noise, after the engine heats up, per Jim Butler. (At least not clacking) Two, Lifters must be thoroughly cleaned, BEFORE putting them in the engine. This is something that really isn't documented anywhere. (For example, there are no instructions that came with my Johnson Lifters). The reason is, Lifters are made from Hardened steel, which is heavy in Carbon. If you let them sit, without some sort rust preventative, they'll oxidize, almost immediately. Soooo, manufactures use a rust preventative during final assembly to ensure their product doesn't rust while sitting on the shelf. This rust preventative is extremely sticky, as compared to oil, for obvious reasons. If this "sticky stuff" isn't cleaned out of the plunger, it'll have the propensity to jam up in operation. I actually tested a few of the plungers on my Johnson set, before and after cleaning. There was a huge difference in plunger performance, after cleaning.

I haven't fired the recently rebuilt motor yet ... (while the engine was out, I decided to upgrade to a Hydraulic Clutch, and TREMEC 600, which I'm also filming) I will film the first fire, and hopefully will not hear what I heard before the tear down... ha, ha...

Just thought I'd share my findings...

[Sirrotica]

Originally Posted by Cliff R

"Funny how LS engines can run hydraulic roller lifters for 200,000 and more miles trouble free............."

GM started using HR lifters in the SBC's clear back in 1987 if memory serves me correctly. Have never once observed any type of failure with one. They are a completely different design than retro-fits AND I'll mention again that the spring loads on those engines are very light compared to what folks are running on these engines.

I've rebuilt several 4.3 and 5.7 Chevy factory HR engines with several hundred thousand miles on them and put the factory cam and lifters right back in them to go another couple hundred thousand miles or so. NEVER had the first issue with one to date.

So what are we missing here with this "retro-fit" stuff that they can't be whisper quiet and go the distance w/o issues?.........

Cliff, actually it was the 350 olds diesel that had the first roller lifters in them in 1981. They used flat tappets from 1978, and had a bunch of updates in 1981 engines because of of the constant failures they had in the early engines. When they went to the roller lifters they also enlarged the bores in the block, and the roller lifters won't fit into a gas 350 olds or Pontiac, which use the same flat tappet lifters.

When working in a buick dealership (1983) we had a core diesel engine laying there and I was going to swap the lifters into my Pontiac with my roller cam. Until I pulled the intake off and saw they were much larger than the gas engines flat tappets.............

I had thought I was going to have the first roller cammed Pontiac with roller hydraulics, damn GM engineers ruined my fun.........

A couple months ago there was a thread to try to find OEM style lifter that could be used in our blocks, but I guess it fizzled out with no results. Someone had mentioned the olds diesel lifters and I told them I had been there and tried that, it wasn't happening. Pontiac OEM blocks surely can't have the lifter bores enlarged to try the larger bore lifters, because they're already failure prone to failure at stock spec. Possibly the aftermarket blocks could be taken out to use a larger diameter lifter such as the olds diesel roller lifters, an expensive proposition for a street engine though.

I also looked up the Straub Technologies website last night after seeing a reference to it in another thread. He (Chris Straub) has quite a few roller lifter choices for Pontiacs on his site, from hydraulic street, to solid competition. Also noted he starts with Morel lifters that have the oil bands in the correct place as noted in his PDF outlining the Pontiac choices he offers. I was surprised at the amount of correctly made Pontiac lifters he offered. I didn't see any pricing while looking, maybe if you have to ask, you can't afford it..........LOL

I did some research last night and found the CC roller lifters have high failure rates in other brands beside Pontiacs. I couldn't sleep last night, and wound up searching the net for options.......

I did see the Pontiac series on you tube last night on the failed link bar allowing the lifter to turn sideways while I was up last night.

I still think the rev kit has some promise to try to control the heavy valvetrain parts, as I said earlier my old school Crower solid roller cam ran fine on the street with a rev kit. It also had interlocking forks on the roller lifters instead of links, to keep them in alignment I believe to be a better system than the failure prone link setup.

[grivera]

I wonder what the rate of failure is for each manufacturer. I can only assume Comp Cams has many more lifters in operation due to their share of the market. And then they sometimes source from different manufacturers which I’m sure would skew the numbers.

[tom s]

Morel,Johnson,Gaterman and Shaver are the primary aftermarket hyd roller lifter MFGs.Pretty much any Cam makers buy from one or more of these.Tom

[tom s]

Gaterman instructions for conversation!
https://www.gatermanproducts.com/upl...tions_2017.pdf

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by Sirrotica

I also looked up the Straub Technologies website last night after seeing a reference to it in another thread. He (Chris Straub) has quite a few roller lifter choices for Pontiacs on his site, from hydraulic street, to solid competition. Also noted he starts with Morel lifters that have the oil bands in the correct place as noted in his PDF outlining the Pontiac choices he offers. I was surprised at the amount of correctly made Pontiac lifters he offered. I didn't see any pricing while looking, maybe if you have to ask, you can't afford it..........LOL

.

Thanks for reminding me of that. Straub is well known in the cam world and comes with high praise. I've looked their for chevy stuff but never thought to look at Pontiac stuff. Didn't know he had such a selection. I'll have to browse that when I get time.

[Region Warrior]

In post #18(thanks Form), the one on the left in photo(shell covers roller) is like the ones GM has used since the 90's.
No way would i use the style on the right.

But must say we'v had quite a few failures with the active management HRL's on 2007-2020(newest was a 2018 two moths ago) 5.3's and couple 6.2's.
Usually just 1 or 2 lock up and bend push rods.
Keep 2 sets with assoiated parts on the self.
Even had to replace 2 cams that only had 1 worn lobe so far this year.

[FrankieT/A]

Originally Posted by Formulajones

That's not much better lol

Its better than an 068...If you're going that route.

[400 Lemans]

https://straubtechnologies.com/pontiac-products

[tom s]

Looks like he just sells Morel lifters for a pontiac?Some need the lifter bores bushed?Tom

[70GS455]

Deleted

[70GS455]

Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme

Let me rephrase slightly. Is it a useful question to ask when putting together a top end "What is my lightest spring I can safely run to meet goals here?" And go with that spring.

On the surface to me it seems like having valve float slightly earlier than you want, is a better option than increased likelihood of catastrophic valvetrain failure.

This particular debate not withstanding, I have become a big believer that most classic motor builds probably run too much spring in general. No matter the cam type.

Worthwhile question.

To answer it regarding acceleration and inertial forces from an aggressive lobe, the following page gives an explanation and has a link to a downloadable xl spreadsheet tool. You will need the lobe profile's deceleration over the nose (I took a few data points on mine with a degree wheel and then took 2 derivatives). But it gives your spring force "margin" over the nose, in my case I had about 175 lbf at 6k rpm left over (or about 30% margin). Prob could go with less spring for me

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

Sent from my SM-T817V using Tapatalk

[Formulajones]

Originally Posted by tom s

Looks like he just sells Morel lifters for a pontiac?Some need the lifter bores bushed?Tom

Try this link Tom

https://straubtechnologies.com/ponti...ts/lifters-pon

[Region Warrior]

"Black Mamba" Whoooo...

[Formulajones]

LOL

[Tom Vaught]

Sorry to read about your lifter/engine failure.

Tom V.

[tom s]

FJ,I already looked at it,all Morels?Tom

[ponjohn]

Originally Posted by Fastmonty

Guys, I just went through this too... a Lunati HR blew up on me, with around 2000 miles on them. I ended up filming the entire deconstruction and rebuild process on YouTube. The lifter sheared off, and ate some of the Cam. Here's the video where I found it... go to the 19:00 minute mark.
https://youtu.be/y_iPx4CiMTg

That said, I'm still not an expert at this, but have learned a TON from this incident. In my case, the anti-rotate bar pin broke, the lifter spun 90 degrees and the cam sheered the Roller off. (Here's the video me fishing the roller out of the pan, https://youtu.be/r_LCmaS8nis) I originally got these from Butler Performance, over 5 years ago. They talked to Lunati, who talked to Morel, who makes them... they agreed with my prognosis, and refunded my money! That's awesome customer support right there. Anyway, I upgraded to Johnson Lifters. Per Butler, they said all of the manufacturers who make HR retrofit lifters have failed for one reason, or another, but by far the most reliable they've seen, come from Johnson.

Now all that being said, I have two takeaways. One, HR's should not be making noise, after the engine heats up, per Jim Butler. (At least not clacking) Two, Lifters must be thoroughly cleaned, BEFORE putting them in the engine. This is something that really isn't documented anywhere. (For example, there are no instructions that came with my Johnson Lifters). The reason is, Lifters are made from Hardened steel, which is heavy in Carbon. If you let them sit, without some sort rust preventative, they'll oxidize, almost immediately. Soooo, manufactures use a rust preventative during final assembly to ensure their product doesn't rust while sitting on the shelf. This rust preventative is extremely sticky, as compared to oil, for obvious reasons. If this "sticky stuff" isn't cleaned out of the plunger, it'll have the propensity to jam up in operation. I actually tested a few of the plungers on my Johnson set, before and after cleaning. There was a huge difference in plunger performance, after cleaning.

I haven't fired the recently rebuilt motor yet ... (while the engine was out, I decided to upgrade to a Hydraulic Clutch, and TREMEC 600, which I'm also filming) I will film the first fire, and hopefully will not hear what I heard before the tear down... ha, ha...

Just thought I'd share my findings...

How did you clean them?

[Bruce Meyer]

I don't get it. Looking at the prices of running Hyd Roller set ups (cam, lifters, pushrods, block mods, etc etc) you don't get much bang for the buck. They seem to be unreliable on top of it all. Don't you guys realize you can make big power with solid flat tappet cams? Even HFT can make big power. At a FRACTION of the cost. Money that could be better spent on other things like upgrading heads.