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Old 01-06-2025, 01:58 PM
TheCeleryStalker TheCeleryStalker is offline
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Default Rebuild or Swap?

I was screwed royally by Hankster's on a 1968 Firebird and I am wondering what the forum thinks of my options:

This is a 68 Firebird Convertible 400 - TH350 car. It is NOT a numbers car, originally a 350 2bbl. The motor is a 68 date code and has 62 heads that were just refurbished due to the car being delivered to me with some bent valves. 3.23 posi rear end. Much like my ex wife, it is pretty to look at but a complete POS.

Now that we have removed the noisy gear drive and put on a regular timing set, we can hear the bottom end knocking and its looking like the bottom end will need to be redone. The shop I deal with has a newly rebuilt Vortec 350 that they are offering as a cheaper alternative to rebuilding the bottom end of the 400.

I dont care about the HP numbers, although it needs to be able to get out of its own way. I also need it to be able to run on 93 octane pump gas, so I would go with a slightly dished piston to get me around 10:1 is I do keep the 400.

What say you forum gurus?

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:15 PM
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To me it would likely depend on how much they were offering the Vortec 350 for.

I personally prefer my Pontiac's to have a true Pontiac under the hood, but I certainly understand that costs can become a concern.

If the heads on the engine now have been redone, and you can assemble at least part of the short block yourself, you may not be in to a rebuild for as much as you would think. I paid 6464.50 to have my engine rebuilt by my local machine shop this past summer.

This was a pretty extensive build that included higher dollar rods, pistons, a higher end assembly treatment for race engines and a dyno tune.

If you went with more budget oriented rods and pistons, don't absolutely need to have the engine squared on a BHJ fixture and don't need a hone with a torque plate, you can start saving some funds here. If you have the short block assembled and can assemble oil pan side and top end yourself, you start saving more money.

I think it could be conceivable to get the cost of a rebuild here down to around 3500.00 or so, unless prices in your area are really high.

When you start looking at that area, I'd have to have that vortec 350 for around 1500 before I'd think about the swap. Because, there's more to it than just the different engine. You'll need to swap chassis side motor mounts, add an engine to trans adapter, torque converter snout extention and will likely need to extend the starter wiring for the opposite side of the engine. If the vortec doesn't have distributor or carb, you may need those as well. Not all of this is heavy cost, but it can start to add-up and where you saved money on the engine, you spent it again to do the swap.

Truth be told, I wanted a near 600hp engine and to do that with an LS swap in my case, I ended up spending several grand less, simply because of the swap materials necessary to complete it. A carbureted Vortec won't be as involved, but I think you get the point I'm trying to make.

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:21 PM
PontiacHO PontiacHO is offline
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If comparing the rebuild cost with installing a Chevy 350, there’s more to the picture. None of your current accessory brackets, exhaust, trans (ck bellhousing for uni style), starter, distributor, and not to mention the throttle and kick down linkage brackets. Just food for thought.

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:23 PM
TheCeleryStalker TheCeleryStalker is offline
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Thanks Jason,

Heads have been redone, so this is a bottom end only situation.

Its funny you bring up the "extras" because I mentioned to the mechanic things like motor mounts, starter on the wrong side, BOP Trans adaptor would be needed and then, like you mentioned its no longer Pontiac powered. The LS swap has also crossed my mind if it would be comparable, money wise, but so far it isnt looking like it. I guess, we will see what numbers he comes up with and go from there. Im at a point where i might just sell it, cut my losses and go buy a used Camaro or mustang if i still want a convertible. Dealing with the classic car dealership has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I hate the car at this point and might just want to be done.

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by TheCeleryStalker View Post
Thanks Jason,

Heads have been redone, so this is a bottom end only situation.

Its funny you bring up the "extras" because I mentioned to the mechanic things like motor mounts, starter on the wrong side, BOP Trans adaptor would be needed and then, like you mentioned its no longer Pontiac powered. The LS swap has also crossed my mind if it would be comparable, money wise, but so far it isnt looking like it. I guess, we will see what numbers he comes up with and go from there. Im at a point where i might just sell it, cut my losses and go buy a used Camaro or mustang if i still want a convertible. Dealing with the classic car dealership has left such a bad taste in my mouth that I hate the car at this point and might just want to be done.
I'm never a proponent of the sunk cost fallacy. If you hate the car, it's probably not worth keeping.

That said, it will be worth more with a properly running engine than with one that needs work. So depending on how much time you want to put in to it, there might still be some upside to either doing the swap, or rebuilding the engine.

*IF* you're serious about selling the car, and as you say the car itself is pretty nice. Doing the LS swap may be the best bang for the buck and resale.

A nice car with a basic 400 that was originally a low trim 350, isn't worth a ton. If that same nice car, now has an LS under the hood with a modern transmission and AC, you can start commanding a good bit more money from a broadened buyer base.

A moderate mile 5.3 with a cam swap and the 4l60e that goes with it, could start to look good to buyers. If you can do the work yourself, there could be some profit there.

Again, unless that vortec is just crazy cheap, the only way I'd probably be thinking about the swap is if it was an LS. Already having a 400 in the car, money is on your side with the rebuild, but with the LS, the car will likely be worth more.

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:34 PM
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Swapping in a different engine just complicates things and adds unseen expense.

Keep it simple and have someone reputable rebuild your 400 short block and drive on, since you haven’t shared your location it makes it impossible to recommend anyone local to you.

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:37 PM
TheCeleryStalker TheCeleryStalker is offline
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Originally Posted by b-man View Post
Swapping in a different engine just complicates things and adds unseen expense.

Have someone reputable rebuild your 400 short block and drive on, since you haven’t shared your location it makes it impossible to recommend anyone local to you.
I'm in northeast Florida.

It has a really nice coil over suspension, etc., so my hope is that i like the car again, once its running right.


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Old 01-07-2025, 12:23 PM
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I'm in northeast Florida.

It has a really nice coil over suspension, etc., so my hope is that i like the car again, once its running right.

Sent you a PM on this site. Give me a call. We're in Jacksonville and specialize in Pontiacs

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Old 01-06-2025, 02:47 PM
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That's a nice car. If it's as nice up close as it shows here, I'd definitely be doing the LS swap if my aim was to sell it.

I will say, that car deserves better than the basic rebuild if you decide to keep it and continue using the Pontiac. I'd do a stroker, fit it with EFI and either a 4l80e or a TKX to match the modernization the car has already received.

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Old 01-06-2025, 11:13 PM
TheCeleryStalker TheCeleryStalker is offline
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Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
That's a nice car. If it's as nice up close as it shows here, I'd definitely be doing the LS swap if my aim was to sell it.

I will say, that car deserves better than the basic rebuild if you decide to keep it and continue using the Pontiac. I'd do a stroker, fit it with EFI and either a 4l80e or a TKX to match the modernization the car has already received.
Thanks! It is as nice close up! The body work, full ride tech suspension etc., was obviously done by someone who knew what they were doing. No rust, nice paint all around, etc.

I'm having the shop put numbers together for me. Butler has quoted me about $6199 for the short block kit (they say the no longer offer assembled short blocks). Ill compare this to rebuilding what i have or swapping and then compare that to what my goals are. I want a reliable cruiser that may occasionally see an autocross. Super long term, I would save up for a manual swap or at least a more modern auto with OD.

I am leaning heavily toward the LS, painted the Pontiac Blue Metallic engine color with "Pontiac" branded valve covers for a reliable runner and then parking the 400 in the garage. If I ever want to sell, I can offer to include the real deal Poncho motor or not.

I truly appreciate all of your expertise. I come from a classic Mopar background and this if my first classic Pontiac. I did have a Solstice for a hot minute, but that's as far as my Pontiac experiences go!

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Old 01-06-2025, 04:58 PM
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Don't let shadyness bring you down....the engine of my just purchased TA fell out on my way home and it didn't discourage me - i found another engine somewhat local to me

That's a nice car you have and good luck with her whatever you chose to do.

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Old 01-06-2025, 10:35 PM
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Having over $10K in my 75 T/A's engine, I'll just throw out crate engines run very well. Pontiacs are expensive to rebuild, so if You're going to go the rebuild route, I'd poke around eBay.

Cheapest - $3500


https://www.ebay.com/itm/25563479123...Bk9SR6Kc0emHZQ



$7500

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15553086651...Bk9SR5ic0emHZQ


$13K

https://www.ebay.com/itm/15653589386...Bk9SR5Kc0emHZQ


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Old 01-06-2025, 10:35 PM
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Pull the engine, have the short block rebuilt and reinstall. This is the easiest and most cost efficient solution. Maybe reach out to Len Williams Auto Machine in OK, he sells and rebuilds engines for reasonable prices and has a good reputation. If not him, surely there is a reputable shop near your location who could do the work and get you going again. Swapping in the sbc or LS will be more costly in the end than just fixing what ya already have.

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Old 01-07-2025, 11:31 AM
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You'd need to do a full disassemble to assess the current components. If the crank, rods and pistons are ok, it'll be mostly machine work and new bearings and assembly, that should be cheaper than buying any engine (sbc vortec included).

I do not see how you could even spend 6k on a stock ish bottom end rebuild if starting with a running engine.
https://butlerperformance.com/c-1459...400-block.html

https://butlerperformance.com/i-3164...tegory:1459542

Those are the two ends of the spectrum for you depending on what is found when disassembling the bottom end, parts wise. You'd only need the latter if the crank and rods are trashed and you'd be getting a nice bump in stroke. You can specify an appropriate piston dish for the 62 heads to get the CR you want for $200.

You will be in more than that in conversion parts to install an sbc or ls motor.

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Old 01-07-2025, 11:45 AM
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My

I cannot deny that LS swap cars are quite popular right now.

But I also cannot dismiss that over the long term, engine swap cars don't appear to hold value (look at 80-90's LT swaps; or the conventional small block swaps done prior to that).

As a purely cost vs risk of investment, I would stick to leaving it Pontiac powered.

I believe that anything spent on having a division correct drivetrain is a lower risk move - and anything spent on making it look nice* is an additional good move.
(* = Nice, but not glammed out; there are plenty of outwardly nice looking cars which look plain janky when the hood is popped)

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Old 01-07-2025, 08:59 PM
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My

I cannot deny that LS swap cars are quite popular right now.

But I also cannot dismiss that over the long term, engine swap cars don't appear to hold value (look at 80-90's LT swaps; or the conventional small block swaps done prior to that).

As a purely cost vs risk of investment, I would stick to leaving it Pontiac powered.

I believe that anything spent on having a division correct drivetrain is a lower risk move - and anything spent on making it look nice* is an additional good move.
(* = Nice, but not glammed out; there are plenty of outwardly nice looking cars which look plain janky when the hood is popped)
I see your point, but let's put it in perspective. For the record all 4 of my Pontiacs have Pontiac engines and I've had 2 of the blocks professionally rebuilt. Points to ponder...

1) The cost delta weighs heavy on whether or not you do the work on the block, or pay someone to do it for you. I bought a rebuilt set of #62 heads for my 69 Firebird and have Edelbrock heads on the 75 T/A. If you're moving on up to a FI engine, you'll pay for it. Is it worth it... I think so, but only if it's in the budget. For the record, crate engines are already rebuilt.

2) What HP are you targeting? For me, my 75 T/A has E heads, intake, RAIII exhaust and estimated at 400HP. That's enough for me, as going higher requires suspension, brakes etc. When I bought the cam from Butler, I asked them to tell me what I needed based on what I had in the engine, and I opted for a less aggressive one, as I don't need nor want a lopey cam in the car to make it run hot and crappy. I want it to run well, and not shave off a 0.1 sec in the quarter. The real question is, what do you want to do with the car? Do you want to go street racing? Take it to the track for a 1/4 mile run? Or, go the store, drive it on weekends (for a decent distance)? A stock Pontiac carbureted engine at 350HP is enough for me. If I want to go faster, I'll drive my 2010 Camaro SS, which has an LS3 and was built for it.

3) I'll sort of disagree with the sentiment that having a SBC makes the car worth a lot less. 1969 was over 50 years ago. The purists will always go with a Pontiac engine (I did), but if you don't pop the hood, very few know the exhaust note difference. This isn't a hill I want to die on, because I sort of agree with the counter argument. I have an 80 Turbo TA with the lame 301. If I put a crate Chevy engine in it (not an LS engine), it'll go fast enough and it's a clear upgrade over the 301, and with the 3:08 gears I can run fine on the highway.

The end should justify the means. Put it all on paper based on what you want out of the car, and see if it's worth it. If you don't need 400+HP, there are cheaper options. I see restomods with $40K plus price tags, but who's buying them? Once you put on aftermarket wheels, steering wheel, gauges etc., you're already deviating from stock, so it matters less. There really is no wrong answer. If you invest an extra $6K in the car, you should expect to see and extra $6K in ROI the sell price. Same goes for a $15K engine. Is the ROI the same if you sell it? Most of us don't flip cars, so we build them the way we want them, and resale value usually isn't as important as what is it you want in the end.

For the record, I have way more money in the T/A engine than should. If I had to do it again, I go full stock Pontiac with RA exhaust.

Stock SBC 350 at $2200 with an $800 core charge.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/v...make/chevrolet


Last edited by thews; 01-07-2025 at 09:09 PM.
  #17  
Old 01-07-2025, 09:45 PM
TheCeleryStalker TheCeleryStalker is offline
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I just spoke with Gary Harrison and I will speak with the wife and probably have him rebuild it. At least have him pull the motor and diagnose what's going on in the bottom end and go from there.

Here are a couple more pics. It's kind of a unique car. I should add that since these pics were taken i've had the heads rebuilt, a Sniper 2 with Hyperspark Distro and the in tank Fuel Pump put on, as well as a higher capacity alternator. I also put in the correct 400/AC car filler panels.











As you can see, someone put a ton of time and effort into this car, so its hard for me to understand why they cut corners on the motor. The rocker arm studs were literally able to be loosened by hand!

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Old 01-07-2025, 11:54 AM
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A LS is usually cheap to get but expensive to actually get it in a non LS car and running and driving!Tom

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Old 01-07-2025, 01:28 PM
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A LS is usually cheap to get but expensive to actually get it in a non LS car and running and driving!Tom
This has been my experience.

In fact, in certain situations, the LS is more in every metric.

Depending on what you already have, even though it's still expensive, you're money ahead building the Pontiac.

I wanted a nominal 600hp engine. I already had a 455 with aftermarket D ports on it. I ended up at 580hp/600tq and it cost me right at $9500.00 to do it and I have a brand new rebuild with exceptional machining. To get into a 600hp LS without some kind of power adder, you're looking at 12-15K depending on what's in it and who's building it. That's before all the swap hardware to get it into the car.

Based on the numbers I've run on my build, it comes down to what kind of power you are wanting to make, and what you currently have available to you.

From 400-650 hp, if you already have a 400 or 455 Pontiac, money leans towards the Pontiac. Machining costs are nominally the same, while parts costs on the LS are cheaper. That get's washed away with the cost of the swap parts.

In the 700-1200 hp zone where the factory Pontiac block isn't reliable, money starts going to the iron based LS engines, since you start needing to purchase an aftermarket Pontiac block.

Beyond that 1200 hp zone where you have an aftermarket block either way, money is a wash (and absurdly expensive anyhow).

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Old 01-07-2025, 12:48 PM
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That Bird is waaaaay too nice to give up on. I'd search for a decent running Pontiac engine you could drop in while you're getting the other rebuilt. Check you local clubs. Might as well go through the trans and rear while you're at it.

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