[Scott Thelander]

Sweeeeeeeeet!

[SD455DJ]

My gosh North! You sure know how to find them. Congrats! She is a beauty!

Dennis

[north]

I was looking into the production numbers, they built about 4,200 HO's in A bodies (2 to 1 automatic to manual) and they built about 210,000 non GTO A bodies so the take rate was exactly 2%. I theory that means that a bit over a hundred LeMans convertibles had the HO, however I'd think that the sportier and higher trim models would have had a much higher take rate than Tempests and 4 doors etc so they probably made a few hundred HO ragtops. Never see any, I suspect the lack of any identification led to a really low collector interest and survival rate.

I notice they raised the HP ratings (from 320 in 1968 to 330 in A body and 325 in birds), was there anything behind the increase or just marketing decisions?

[nytrainer]

Unreal collection. When will you be open for a group tour! Congratulations on another fine addition.

[SD455DJ]

Originally Posted by north

I was looking into the production numbers, they built about 4,200 HO's in A bodies (2 to 1 automatic to manual) and they built about 210,000 non GTO A bodies so the take rate was exactly 2%. I theory that means that a bit over a hundred LeMans convertibles had the HO, however I'd think that the sportier and higher trim models would have had a much higher take rate than Tempests and 4 doors etc so they probably made a few hundred HO ragtops. Never see any, I suspect the lack of any identification led to a really low collector interest and survival rate.

I notice they raised the HP ratings (from 320 in 1968 to 330 in A body and 325 in birds), was there anything behind the increase or just marketing decisions?

North, the HP increase was due to going to large valve #48 heads and upgrades of the camshaft to the 067 for TH400's and and the 068 for the sticks.

The below is from Fred Simmonds:

I saw a document at the GM Heritage Center that had the 350HO production by body style. Here it is:

Tempest 2-door coupe: 85
Tempest 4-door sedan: 10

Custom S 2-door coupe: 87
Custom S 2-door hardtop: 597
Custom S 4-door hardtop: 30
Custom S 2-door ragtop: 45
Custom S 4-door sedan: 55

LeMans 2-door coupe: 117
LeMans 2-door hardtop: 2,687
LeMans 4-door hardtop: 254
LeMans 2-door ragtop: 271
Total: 4,238 A-Bodies w/350HO

1969 Tempest Custom S 4 door models:
23539 (4 door hardtop): 350 HO engines - all transmissions: 30 of 3,918 total 23539's with all engines
23569 (4 door sedan): 350 HO engines - all transmissions 55 of 16,532 total 23569's with all engines
Total Tempest with 350 HO: 95
Total Custom S with 350 HO: 814
Total LeMans with 350 HO: 3,329

I don't have any data on engine / transmission combinations. Hope this helps.

Fred

[north]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks! I had forgotten about that listing.

[nytrainer]

I was able to find out from GM Heritage Center that Pontiac made 176 ‘68 350HO manual trans convertible Lemans’. They did not differentiate between 3 speed and 4 speed manual trans though.
Assuming a 2 to 1 ratio of auto to manual trans in the 271, 1969 Lemans’s 350HO convertibles (as mentioned in previous post) then the breakdown could be 180 autos and 91 manuals.
Either way with all those options I’d bet there were very view like it.

[north]

Those numbers don’t seem to add up as expected. If they made 171 manual HO LeMans convertibles that means only 105 automatics. It is possible but highly unlikely that they’d have twice as many manuals when the overall HO number is twice as many automatics.

[north]

Btw, another interesting math item with the HO is how good of a value it was… it cost $175.30 and the 350 2bbl cost $110.59. So $64.42. However the HO included duals which cost $30.54 so the actual extra for the engine itself was only $33.88. 65 extra horses for only $34 is a hell of a bargain. I guess most buyers who cared would just get a GTO and many other buyers didn’t want to pay extra for super gas.


One thing that must be rare is the dual exhaust option on the 350 2bbl. I’ve never seen an invoice with that option ever.

[nytrainer]

Originally Posted by north

Those numbers don’t seem to add up as expected. If they made 171 manual HO LeMans convertibles that means only 105 automatics. It is possible but highly unlikely that they’d have twice as many manuals when the overall HO number is twice as many automatics.

What numbers don’t add up? 1968 or 1969?
The info referencing the 1969 HO Lemans’s verts shows 271 total. So using the 2:1 ratio 91 manuals and twice that for auto trans is 180 which gives you the 271 shown.

The only info I have for 1968 Lemans 350HO verts was for manual trans (176) I didn’t get the auto trans #’s

[north]

Sorry, I didn’t catch that. You were talking about 1968!

[Diego]

FWIW, 388 HO LeMans ragtops built in 1968, of which 176 were manuals, the difference automatic.

Not sure if the reference will help, or if there's a pattern carried over into 1969.

Info from GM Heritage Center.

[dataway]

I have some kind of illness. I've owned a 68 GTO for about 50 years, and for some reason ... I think I like the Lemans more. I like the console more, I like the bumper, I like less pressure to "perform" Just seems like an easier car to own and drive.

[Mark Simiele]

As always John, neat car and love all the options. A most unique Le Mans.

They all come and find you! Best of luck with it.

[Mcronk]

We looked this car over several times. Most did not catch it was a HO car. Neat options and nice color combination. This makes the second car I looked at that you ended up purchasing! Few years back you bought a 69 GTO RAIII Expresso Brown with Parchment interior out of the Tampa area. I was to "slow" to pull the trigger on that one. A friend down from Canada for the auction told us you bought it. I thought of course! This is right in your "sweet spot".

I owned one of the nicest Lemans I have ever seen. A 1969 Warwick Blue with medium blue interior and white vinyl top. Over the top on options. What the original owner could not get (ordered very late in the year) he had the dealer install after delivery. Originally a California car that came to Florida. I was 4th owner and spoke to second owner. Here is a brief video clip of car. Note I did not install the wing. I would never have done that to this car. I also corrected several items (exhaust extensions on upside down). It is one of the cars I wish I had back. Everything worked as intended. It went to Norway.
https://youtu.be/ce96fL219-k?feature=shared

[Shiny]

Beautiful cars

Mcronk, was there a 4bbl 350 in 1969 that was NOT an HO? Just curious.

[Mcronk]

I don't believe so. At least not for the A body.

[north]

I remember that blue LeMans, sweet car. I don’t remember why I let it pass, must have already busted my acquisition budget for the year!

I also remember looking at a really nice convertible a few years ago, also Warwick and a very high factory option load and nice clean California history. It had a godawful set of aluminum wheels that just ruined the look.

There were four possible engines in a 69 LeMans (or Tempest or Custom S). Standard was a one barrel regular fuel 250 OHC six making 175 hp. Optional through the Sprint package was a 4 bbl premium fuel version of the OHC making 230 hp (215 with auto trans). Also optional and by far the most popular was the 2 bbl regular fuel 350 making 265 hp. Lastly was the 350 HO which made 330 horses with a 4bbl and premium fuel.

There was no “regular” 4bbl 350.

[north]

Earlier in this thread I notice that the 350HO went from twice as many manuals to automatics in 68 to the reverse in 69. I suspect the reason was because 69 was the first year you could get a 3speed turbo hydramatic on any A body (68 hydramatic was GTO only).

Similar thing happened in 67 to GTO when the first offered the th400.

Interestingly the only automatic choice on GTO, Sprint and 350HO was the three speed hydramatic (th400 on GTO HO and th350 on the Sprint.

On the other two engines (1bbl OHC and 350 2bbl) you had a choice of automatic: the 2 speed or the th350.

An interesting variation to this last point was the 350 2bbl when equipped with AC. Until late in the model year with that set up if you ordered the three speed automatic you were billed the lower th350 price but the car would be built with a th400. In the last month or two of the model year they dropped this practice and installed the th350 even with AC. There is no bulletin about it but the two likely causes were either production capacity constraints on the new for 69 th350 and/or some durability concerns about the torque and car weight combination for this lighter duty transmission.

[Shiny]

I assumed the TH400 was needed to deal with the higher torque and/or "assumed" aggressive driving style with a 350HO.

Why would AC need a TH400 over a TH350? I never understood that one. Did the fluid in a TH350 run hotter and stress the cooling system with AC?