#1  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:05 AM
dataway's Avatar
dataway dataway is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Saratoga NY
Posts: 8,922
Default 10-40w high zinc oil suggestions

Don't really want to start an oil thread, but another thread brought this to mind.

I broke in my mostly stock rebuild YS400, FTC engine on 20/50 VR-1. Mostly because of the zinc it contains. The engine has clearances that are mostly on the low end of the OEM specs ... so street engine for sure.

Wondering what would be a good product to use after things have settled down and it's on the road.

They make a VR-1 10w/30 ... seems a bit light to me, also straight wt. 30, 40 and 50.

  #2  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:30 AM
Schurkey Schurkey is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Seasonally Frozen Wastelands
Posts: 5,891
Default

Use the thinnest oil that maintains adequate oil pressure when hot.

"Zinc" is not the issue it's made out to be. There's other high-pressure additives, they're just not as inexpensive as ZDDP.

Consider this site:
https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

  #3  
Old 12-03-2019, 06:03 AM
dataway's Avatar
dataway dataway is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Saratoga NY
Posts: 8,922
Default

To be honest, I'm not real picky about oil. I pretty much use Mobil One in everything under the sun unless I have a good reason to use something else.

I was going to stick with VR-1 for a while cause that's what the engine was recently "born with"

I'm also good with using the thinnest oil that gets me my 60 psi hot at 3000 rpm.

  #4  
Old 12-03-2019, 09:10 AM
RocktimusPryme's Avatar
RocktimusPryme RocktimusPryme is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bedford, IN
Posts: 2,166
Default

Amsoil makes a high zinc 10-40. I use it in my Galaxie. Im not sure what they separate their high zinc lines, but they have their Z rod or whatever and then they have another high zinc line with a more bland name that gets offered in 10-40

__________________
1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs
1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455
Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports
https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports
  #5  
Old 12-03-2019, 09:58 AM
455rebel 455rebel is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: East TN
Posts: 487
Default

Rotella 15w 40, in all my classics! Diesel oil has more pressure , anti wear additives.

__________________
1970 amc rebel 4-door, faded blue paint,290 emblems on car, 455 under the hood.Turbo 400,3.15 gear.
Best so far 1/8 et,8.90 on street tires,
Since that I have added 400 heads.
I call it a rat sleeper.
  #6  
Old 12-03-2019, 10:58 AM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

why did you use a 20/50 to break in a street engine? being this is a flat tappet cam/lifter, they make specific cam break in additives to add to the oil that have the extreme high levels of zddp. when added to a good normal oil that is more than sufficient for break ins.

another very important factor is the cam size & spring pressure, if this isnt a big cam with high spring pressures you do not need race oils like VR1 or z-rod etc with exaggerated zddp levels once its broken in. it will run fine with any decent 10/40 off the shelf oil. ive explained this probably 100 times, but current oils still have adequate levels of zddp for most "street" level cams & all stock cams. as mentioned above, modern oils have other additives for wear like moly & some oils like valvoline use a newer type of zddp that lasts longer so a high level is not needed like old oils did.

if the cam is a little bigger & you think you need a better oil with more zddp you can use a diesel oil, they are rated for api car specs as well & are perfectly fine in gas engines, ive been running rotella or delo 400 in a mild cam 400 for 10+ years with no issues, & could probably run normal oil in it too. however almost any 10/40 oil still has good zddp levels since the reduction was more for lighter energy conserving oils. check some oil samples tested & you will see 800-1000ppm of zddp in many 10/40 oils, which is plenty for mild cams/springs. specialty oils cost $7-10/qt, you can buy a good diesel oil for $20-25/gallon, or normal oils & add a $10 bottle of zddp additive if you feel the need & will save a lot of money!

with you confirming its a street engine built with tight specs, & i see you're in NY which gets very cold in the spring & fall, i say you do not need or want to use a 20/50 oil, way too thick for that engine. & before the whole "cold pour" thing gets mentioned, yes a good synthetic 20/50 can have cold pour ratings as good or better than some thinner conventional oils, but cold pour matters only for very cold starts & lasts only for a few minutes, you drive the car fully warmed up & pumping a 50 weight oil through tight clearances is just not needed... oils main job besides lubrication is cooling, & a thinner oil flows in & out of bearings to cool better than a thick oil.

if the engine is built with good clearances a 10/30 will give you the desired 60psi warm... but remember, 10psi per 1000rpm is all thats needed for any street or street/strip engine, so you dont necessarily need 60psi at 3000 & that doesnt mean the oil is too thin... 15-25 at warm idle & 40-50 at 3000 would be fine.


Last edited by 78w72; 12-03-2019 at 11:18 AM.
  #7  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:41 AM
Formulas Formulas is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 2,659
Default

Around me Penngrade partial synthetic that boasts ZDDP in 10w-40 is my choice for older hardware gets the job done and it's not overly priced like some others

If your desired viscosity isn't on the shelf ask
.

__________________
A man who falls for everything stands for nothing.
  #8  
Old 12-03-2019, 11:53 AM
RocktimusPryme's Avatar
RocktimusPryme RocktimusPryme is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bedford, IN
Posts: 2,166
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
why did you use a 20/50 to break in a street engine? being this is a flat tappet cam/lifter, they make specific cam break in additives to add to the oil that have the extreme high levels of zddp. when added to a good normal oil that is more than sufficient for break ins.

another very important factor is the cam size & spring pressure, if this isnt a big cam with high spring pressures you do not need race oils like VR1 or z-rod etc with exaggerated zddp levels once its broken in. it will run fine with any decent 10/40 off the shelf oil. ive explained this probably 100 times, but current oils still have adequate levels of zddp for most "street" level cams & all stock cams. as mentioned above, modern oils have other additives for wear like moly & some oils like valvoline use a newer type of zddp that lasts longer so a high level is not needed like old oils did.

if the cam is a little bigger & you think you need a better oil with more zddp you can use a diesel oil, they are rated for api car specs as well & are perfectly fine in gas engines, ive been running rotella or delo 400 in a mild cam 400 for 10+ years with no issues, & could probably run normal oil in it too. however almost any 10/40 oil still has good zddp levels since the reduction was more for lighter energy conserving oils. check some oil samples tested & you will see 800-1000ppm of zddp in many 10/40 oils, which is plenty for mild cams/springs. specialty oils cost $7-10/qt, you can buy a good diesel oil for $20-25/gallon, or normal oils & add a $10 bottle of zddp additive if you feel the need & will save a lot of money!

.

Sorta sidebar related question out of curiosity. At what seat pressure would it be deemed both, okay to run a non specialty oil, and at what spring pressure would it be advisable to remove the inner springs during break in?

I ask because I have a BBC with a flat tappet Im about to break in and Im wondering if the extra spring step is necessary. Its like .540 @ 1.7 and the springs are I want to say 130 or 135lb seat pressure.

__________________
1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs
1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455
Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports
https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports
  #9  
Old 12-03-2019, 12:32 PM
Schurkey Schurkey is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: The Seasonally Frozen Wastelands
Posts: 5,891
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
I'm also good with using the thinnest oil that gets me my 60 psi hot at 3000 rpm.
Why on Earth do you need 60 psi oil pressure at 3000 rpm?

Probably not harmful, but totally un-needed. "Traditional" wisdom was 30 psi at 3K. 60 psi at 6K. More recent theory is that even that (10 psi per thousand RPM) is excessive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme View Post
Sorta sidebar related question out of curiosity. At what seat pressure would it be deemed both, okay to run a non specialty oil, and at what spring pressure would it be advisable to remove the inner springs during break in?

I ask because I have a BBC with a flat tappet Im about to break in and Im wondering if the extra spring step is necessary. Its like .540 @ 1.7 and the springs are I want to say 130 or 135lb seat pressure.
I was told by some rep at Lunati that anything over 300 open pressure was grounds for concern.

  #10  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:08 PM
glhs#116's Avatar
glhs#116 glhs#116 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Durham, UK
Posts: 1,627
Default

Another vote for good ol' diesel oil. I also buy the Shell 15W-40 and I add a can of STP. On teardown, my engine had zero sludge or deposits built up in the deadhead oil gallery after ten years of doing this..

Sam

__________________
--

Sam Agnew

Where you come from is gone; where you thought you were going to, weren't never there; and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
Ministry - Jesus Built My Hotrod
  #11  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:40 PM
dataway's Avatar
dataway dataway is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Saratoga NY
Posts: 8,922
Default

Basically 60 psi at 3000 rpm is my target because that's what it always ran from day one when I bought it in 1976. That was with 10W40. Figure if that's good enough for a tired old factory built engine, it's good enough for that same engine after it's rebuilt fresh.

When I stopped driving it 40 years ago, with 100,000+ miles on it ... it still had 60 pounds at 3000 rpm. Other than losing a couple hp and maybe a tad of drive gear wear, wouldn't think it would cause any harm.

Thanks for the suggestions, with stock springs and an 068 cam I shouldn't have the worries about the zinc content that I do, force of habit.

  #12  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:41 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme View Post
Sorta sidebar related question out of curiosity. At what seat pressure would it be deemed both, okay to run a non specialty oil, and at what spring pressure would it be advisable to remove the inner springs during break in?

I ask because I have a BBC with a flat tappet Im about to break in and Im wondering if the extra spring step is necessary. Its like .540 @ 1.7 and the springs are I want to say 130 or 135lb seat pressure.
i will have to leave this one to more experienced guys that know what the limits are. but in general, ive always went by what my local engine builder told me & what ive read over the years... any cam under about .480-.500 lift & the proper springs for that size cam do not need the crazy high levels of zddp once its properly broken in.

i have broken in a few FT cams & never used a special oil, just made sure to use the cam lube for the lobes & add a bottle of comp or crane type break in additive. with a quick start & kept at 2000+ rpm for the required time there should not be any problems. but removing inner springs is a common practice & cant hurt, especially on a .540 cam & what are probably pretty beefy springs. i woud not consider a .540 lift cam "mild" so doing all you can to help with break in is a good idea.

regarding diesel oils, they had the levels reduced as well awhile ago, but still have more than most off the shelf normal oils do. last i saw, most still have 1000+ppm zddp which is more than enough for most mild cams. & while rotella is a very good oil, it's one of the lower level zddp diesel oils today, delo, motorcraft & even walmart super tech diesel oils have higher zddp levels from recent oil analysis ive seen.

check out bobistheoilguy forums for over 100 pages of threads on just virgin & used oil samples. lots of good info there with knowledgeable members who are just as passionate (obsessed) with oil as members here are with pontiacs!

  #13  
Old 12-03-2019, 02:51 PM
glhs#116's Avatar
glhs#116 glhs#116 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Durham, UK
Posts: 1,627
Default

I think there can be a danger of zddp fixation here. The zinc, specifically, was reduced in modern oils because it poisons catalysts. I'm sure there are other high pressure additives that good oils use in its place. My thinking is that diesel oils are designed for engines that see higher internal pressures even though zinc has been reduced in these as well because some of them use cats. Maybe someone more up on their chemistry can comment on what other additives are used in place of zinc to guard against metal-to-metal contact.

Sam

__________________
--

Sam Agnew

Where you come from is gone; where you thought you were going to, weren't never there; and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
Ministry - Jesus Built My Hotrod
  #14  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:25 PM
455rebel 455rebel is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: East TN
Posts: 487
Default

I had a .600 solid lift cam with 300lb+ open spring pressure, that ran rotella after break in.
Close 50000 miles on engine with 3000 mile changes. Changed springs once in 50k, they lost some tension, but never lost a lobe. I did use stp after new springs went in.

__________________
1970 amc rebel 4-door, faded blue paint,290 emblems on car, 455 under the hood.Turbo 400,3.15 gear.
Best so far 1/8 et,8.90 on street tires,
Since that I have added 400 heads.
I call it a rat sleeper.
  #15  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:48 PM
JSPONT's Avatar
JSPONT JSPONT is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: ROCKY POINT NY
Posts: 2,917
Default

I just stopped using VR-1. I do not know if this is true I am just going by what I see. I have a turbo car, the oil cools the turbo, so it gets beat up under my driving conditions. Racing oil seems to have less detergents, I get a black film at the bottom of my filter( it is a re usable billet one) with VR-1. I did not get that with the conventional oil and adding cam shot (zinc additive). I am now trying something else this spring just to see.
By the way, I had the motor apart, bearings looked new after 3 years, so I am not sure how much different oils matter as much as how often you change oil.
With my car I can actually tell by the oil pressure when it needs a change, very slight change cold and warm, but I know the car so well.

  #16  
Old 12-03-2019, 03:49 PM
dataway's Avatar
dataway dataway is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Saratoga NY
Posts: 8,922
Default

I tend to fixate on things easily

  #17  
Old 12-03-2019, 04:03 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by glhs#116 View Post
I think there can be a danger of zddp fixation here. The zinc, specifically, was reduced in modern oils because it poisons catalysts. I'm sure there are other high pressure additives that good oils use in its place. My thinking is that diesel oils are designed for engines that see higher internal pressures even though zinc has been reduced in these as well because some of them use cats. Maybe someone more up on their chemistry can comment on what other additives are used in place of zinc to guard against metal-to-metal contact.

Sam
moly is the main wear additive thats been added to modern oils to help offset lower zinc... & as valvoline states, new improved zddp that lasts longer. phosphorous is another anti wear part of zddp. & current SN valvoline dexos rated oils have small amouts of titanium that ive read is anti wear.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 455rebel View Post
I had a .600 solid lift cam with 300lb+ open spring pressure, that ran rotella after break in.
Close 50000 miles on engine with 3000 mile changes. Changed springs once in 50k, they lost some tension, but never lost a lobe. I did use stp after new springs went in.
a good example that a BIG cam with strong springs will live a happy life on a common diesel oil without huge amounts of zddp.

  #18  
Old 12-03-2019, 04:44 PM
Navy Horn 16 Navy Horn 16 is offline
Chief Ponti-yacker
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Dripping Springs, Texas
Posts: 802
Default

AMSOIL Z-Rod 10-30 will be a great oil for your engine.

Nothing in the market made my roller lifters quiet until I found some of that Z-Rod on sale. I don't need the Zinc, but figured it wouldn't hurt anything. Now, it's all I run.

__________________
77 Trans Am, 469 w/ported E-Heads via Kauffman, matched HSD intake, Butler Performance forged rotating assembly, Comp custom hyd roller, Q-jet, Art Carr 200 4R, 3.42s, 3 inch exhaust w/Doug's cutouts, D.U.I. Ignition. 7.40 in the 8th, 11.61@116.07 in the quarter...still tuning.

  #19  
Old 12-03-2019, 05:28 PM
chevymad chevymad is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Skamokawa, WA
Posts: 135
Default

Mobil 1 has a 5w40 diesel oil that's 1300ppm zinc. Also a 10w-40 racing @ 1300ppm. https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...pecs-guide.pdf

  #20  
Old 12-03-2019, 06:56 PM
JSPONT's Avatar
JSPONT JSPONT is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: ROCKY POINT NY
Posts: 2,917
Default

want to see some cool oil tests go to project farm on you tube, love the guys channel.

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 02:01 AM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017