#1401  
Old 09-27-2020, 03:48 PM
avman avman is offline
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That model 292 is 4" deep, and would not fit in the 3" max space I have available for my 70 Roadrunner.
Right now, I'm going to install the 17" flex fan, the factory radiator, and go drive the car. The GTO Cold Case radiator dimensions are in the attached pic.
The first dual 12" Cold Case fan setup I can return for full credit. I'm stuck with the 16" electric fan because the vendor I bought $6K worth of stuff from says because it was trimmed (to fit tightly without gaps) and the wires cut to solder into my power and ground wires, I can't return it and he thinks it could be "a lean condition at highway speed or timing too far retarded" Never mind that the mechanical clutch fan did not cause the engine to run hot.
I'm going to write him one more email after I contact the manufacturer. If they won't refund my money, I am going to let him know I bought the fan he recommended and IT FAILED to work as promised, and my proof is the mechanical fan doesn't make the car overheat, therefore HE IS RESPONSIBLE for selling me a product unfit for the purpose indicated. If he still refuses to give me a refund, I will explore other options, and never buy anything from him again.
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  #1402  
Old 09-27-2020, 06:21 PM
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Keep in mind, when a dual fan setup is giving dimensions, the highest point is the fan motors. The highest point on your engine is most likely the water pump snout. That would fit between the fan motors.

Example: (Pic Attached)

The snout of the WP with the pulley on it is 1.1" more than the rated 'overall depth' of the fan assembly. You also have to take into account the core is not the same depth as the tanks, you get a little there too.

But, to say it out loud, you won't know until you try.

You can always look at moving the rad forward some too.

.
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  #1403  
Old 09-27-2020, 06:31 PM
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Once you mod a part, you own it. I don't know of any supplier that will accept a return on a modified part.

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  #1404  
Old 09-28-2020, 10:07 PM
avman avman is offline
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TEST DRIVE RESULTS ARE IN!
With the factory non-AC radiator (because my aluminum Cold Case radiator is wrecked from the fan clutch eating into it) and a 17" FLEX FAN the guy who did the unfinished job on the GTO had and gave me, I was able to use the CVF Wraptor fan spacer and a 2½" aluminum spacer I had cut down about 4/5th of an inch to get the FLEX FAN to clear the pulleys, and I have about 1¼" clearance between the radiator and the farthest forward part of the fan.
Temps between 183-187 no AC at 55. AC on went to about 192-197. At 3,500 RPMs at 72 MPH on the Interstate, the part where it used to go to 220-225, the highest temp with the AC ON was about 205!! Mostly 203.
Seven miles like that and exit, 55 on the road home AC ON, and around 193-197.
Sat in the driveway w/AC ON and it got to about 203.
So....
I'm good to go for the week of Cruisin the Coast, and then I'm going to have to take the Wraptor down to the point where I can get to the water pump and divider plate to check the gap which I still suspect is too wide, but I HAVE TO know. If it is bigger than 1/10th inch I'll massage the plate to get the tight gap. Then see how that affects the temperature. If it drops 10 degrees from 205 to 195 I may go ahead and try the 16" electric fan again. If that doesn't work, I'll sell it and see if I can make a short shroud for the FLEX FAN. I will check the clearance from the flex fan to the Cold Case radiator and if I have at least 1" I'll either get it fixed or sell it and buy a new one.
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  #1405  
Old 09-29-2020, 04:25 PM
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IMPORTANT TECH INFO from Dakota Digital. I have the 17" two speed fan in my 440 6bbl 70 Roadrunner from the same manufacturer as the 16" two speed fan in the GTO, that fan failing to keep the 421 Tripower from overheating on the Interstate.
So my tech support epiphany doesn't get unread, I learned in setting up the Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan control module today in my Roadrunner that any TWO speed fan that requires BOTH 12 volt power wires to be energized in order for high speed function to work, the PAC-2800BT "FAN MODE" options (Single/Two/Dual) MUST be set to "TWO" in order for the high speed function to engage. This may not be a surprise or help to anyone, but it was for me.
The 16" fan in the GTO likely never ran in high speed mode.
I realize that many discount any "fan" contribution or detriment to temperature control once the vehicle speed goes beyond 40 or 45 or more miles per hour, BUT the overheating problem I've been experiencing has been primarily at highway speed, AND I have been able to GREATLY REDUCE the temperature reached with each of two mechanical fans I have tried, the factory clutch fan, and the 17" FLEX FAN that is currently on the 421.
After struggling with coolant temperatures climbing over 225 degrees or more, primarily at speeds over 50 MPH, and trying 2 different fan and shroud assemblies, one from Cold Case (the radiator manufacturer) that's a dual 12" fan setup, and when that failed to cool acceptably, a highly rated and recommended 16" two speed fan and shroud. The only viable solution I have found so far is using a mechanical fan exclusively. The flex fan kept the "around town" temps in the 180s to 190s and the highest Interstate temp, AC ON, was 205, but mostly 198-203, and back in the 180s-190s after exiting the highway. Anyway, day after tomorrow is when I hope to spring the Roadrunner from "shop jail" and I'll be able to find out if the 17" 2 speed fan, that I know is set up correctly (because I DID IT) keeps my warmed over 440 6bbl cool, or if I have overheating issues like in the GTO. I suspect that it will work fine, and if so, that will press me even more to look at the gap as the problem with the GTO.
If I try the 16" electric fan again, after maybe finding the gap in the water pump to be too large, closing it down to 1/10th" and seeing a 8-10 degree drop in temperature, I will know how to set it up to work properly.

  #1406  
Old 10-03-2020, 02:00 PM
avman avman is offline
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I have another update on the fan saga. I have the 17" version of the same fan in my Roadrunner, 440 6bbl, modded about the same level as the 421, less the aftermarket rods, and it has flat tappet hydraulic lifters, but a 292°/.509 cam, headers, etc. Vintage Air AC system and Wraptor.
I had NO overheating problem with the Roadrunner, but there are a couple of differences. No goofy Pontiac design water pump divider plate to contend with. The Cold Case radiator is larger. It was programmed by me to run at high speed, where I set it, but I don't think the GTO fan was. I was able to use the "Turn Fan OFF At XX MPH" feature on the Dakota Digital PAC-2800BT electronic fan control module and the temperature on the highway at 70 MPH didn't change with the fan off. Also, my Passon a855 5 speed and 4.10 gears turn the 440 at 2,750 RPM, not 3,500 like the GTO. I already have a TKO600 5 speed for the GTO, but it's not installed yet.
So, AGAIN, I believe the culprit is the divider plate gap being too big, and as long as the flex fan gets the 421GOAT through Cruisin the Coast without overheating, that will suffice. After the week of Cruisin the Coast, I'll take out the fan and radiator, and a good bit of the Wraptor, so I can get the front half of the water pump off and the divider plate, check the gap, and I expect to have to do some massaging to close that gap.
Then I'll try the same setup, and if I find much cooler temps, I'll go back and try the electric fan and shroud assembly again.

  #1407  
Old 07-21-2021, 02:21 PM
Hotrodjohn71 Hotrodjohn71 is offline
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Default Pump casting #

I was almost able to read through this amazing thread (71 pages)
I have an 8 bolt housing with the cast inner plate and stainless steel divider plate on my 1965 326.
What is a part # I can use to search for to get a pump with the correct tall vanes for this setup. I'm thinking that the correct impeller will have satisfactory clearance.
I realize it is no longer available.
I cannot hammer my inner plate because it is cast.
Thank you
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  #1408  
Old 07-21-2021, 04:57 PM
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Old Goat 67 Old Goat 67 is offline
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Here are pictures of my spare NOS 67 pump sitting on the shelf. WAITING.
Pictures made with ordinal 67 divider plat that has never been hammered on!







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  #1409  
Old 07-21-2021, 06:19 PM
Hotrodjohn71 Hotrodjohn71 is offline
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Thank you OldGoat67,
Is that the cast inner plate 9773375?
Thank you

  #1410  
Old 07-22-2021, 07:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodjohn71 View Post
Thank you OldGoat67,
Is that the cast inner plate 9773375?
Thank you
Can't tell you that for sure. It is the plate that was in there when I bought the car brand new.

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  #1411  
Old 07-24-2021, 10:28 PM
Hotrodjohn71 Hotrodjohn71 is offline
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Here's a question about the divider plate. I realise the inner plate must be as close to the impeller as humanly possible without touching and I will get to that but first, I'm wondering about the divider plate.

I think I read somewhere in this vast posting that someone said that as important as the impeller clearance is, the 'centering' of the divider plate to the center line of the impeller is also important so that half of the water goes into one side of the engine and half to the other which would be accomplished by centering of the divider plate to the impeller.

I just received new stainless plates today and when I set them on my new flowkooler pump, I noticed that the divider plate sits so high (or that the impeller sits so low) that about 90% of the flow would be going to one side bank and about 10% to the other.

So, is it recommended to bend the divider plate to center it to the impeller along with setting the clearance on the impeller to inner plate?
Thank you
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  #1412  
Old 07-25-2021, 02:15 PM
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I'd say the divider should be in the center of the vane height to properly divide the flow between banks....Flow-Koolers weren't around back in the day. I like the tall height of the vanes.

IMHO

george

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  #1413  
Old 08-14-2021, 12:48 PM
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Half-Inch Stud Half-Inch Stud is offline
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GMB pump from Parts Geek ( $48) versus my >15 year old pump that kept the 455+060 cool. Pump on left is as-good right?

Would like to rebuild the old pump, or float it to someone who does that.
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Old 08-14-2021, 12:58 PM
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I have now tested my Flowcooler pump with a fabricated divider plate I made from 18ga stainless sheet (in order to have an equal division of water right at the center of the impeller)and also by manipulating the inner impeller plate clearance to be as close as humanly possible without rubbing the impeller.

I can see good flow in the radiator and my engine is averaging around 190° here in CA 90 degrees heat.
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  #1415  
Old 08-14-2021, 08:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Half-Inch Stud View Post
GMB pump from Parts Geek ( $48) versus my >15 year old pump that kept the 455+060 cool. Pump on left is as-good right?

Would like to rebuild the old pump, or float it to someone who does that.
Can't answer that question without a side shot to show well the plate matches the pump blades?????

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Old 04-10-2023, 05:29 PM
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Well I just went through this water pump swap trying to cool off my 1969 Grand Prix. Car is stock with AC, 428 and stock shroud and a new heavy duty fan clutch. I did install a 28" Griffin aluminum radiator and a 180° Mr Gasket thermostat.

Anyway, it always ran hot especially with the AC on. I just replaced the pump with a new cast impeller GMB pump and I hammered the divider plate to get about 1/"16" clearance. The old pump also had a cast impeller and had about 1/4" clearance to the plate.

Today driving at 75 mph with 93° ambient temperature, the engine coolant temp is 198° with AC off and about 210° with AC on. These numbers are unchanged compared to the old pump.

The motor is fresh so there is no issue with blocked coolant passages. I am running 70/30 water/coolant mix.

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Old 04-10-2023, 07:42 PM
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I'd start looking for areas where air is by-passing the radiator. Are all the factory AC option air seals in place? Around frame horns, between bottom of radiator and core support (A body has these). Assembly manual usually outlines all the additional seals used on AC cars .
Only other thing I could suggest is going to 50/50 mix, I think that's considered optimum for heat transfer/protection. Of course check the lower hose for the spring.

And ... how accurate is the gauge ... jeez if you were only 10 degrees cooler across the board I'd call it good for a big car, big engine with AC.

How does it behave in the same weather sitting in traffic?

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Old 04-10-2023, 08:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dataway View Post
I'd start looking for areas where air is by-passing the radiator. Are all the factory AC option air seals in place? Around frame horns, between bottom of radiator and core support (A body has these). Assembly manual usually outlines all the additional seals used on AC cars .
Only other thing I could suggest is going to 50/50 mix, I think that's considered optimum for heat transfer/protection. Of course check the lower hose for the spring.

And ... how accurate is the gauge ... jeez if you were only 10 degrees cooler across the board I'd call it good for a big car, big engine with AC.

How does it behave in the same weather sitting in traffic?
To you questions:

Seals around radiator are good and I added some additional seals when installing the aluminum radiator. The frame horn seals are fair conditions and at least one could use a replacement.

On the coolant mix ratio, 100% water offers the best heat transfer per I study I have and 70/30 is a compromise between cooling and correction protection. Same study also reports the "water wetter" is a waste of money. Some addition info here: https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/e...col-d_146.html

I have an aftermarket digital gage and I have check the accuracy.

Lower hose spring is in place.

When sitting in traffic, temperature does rise especially after coming off the freeway. I have not done a lot of city driving yet since these changes.


Last edited by mike202; 04-10-2023 at 08:11 PM.
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  #1419  
Old 04-10-2023, 11:01 PM
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I have had a 1968 350 Firebird since 1978 and it has always run 200 -210 on the interstate and 10 to 20 degrees cooler in the city. Factory a/c car with all the baffles in place. I tried the cast impeller and clearanced divider plate, aluminum radiator and nothing ever changed.

The 1971 455HO TA I use to have ran 210 on the interstate with the a/c on and 190ish in town with a/c. Non a/c use only made about 10 cooler in town only.

The 1969 428 Bonneville I had I don't know what it ran as it only had an "idiot light".

My current daily driver, a 2012 Silverado runs 210 all the time and the factory electric cooling fans on my 1994 Roadmaster Wagon don't operate until 210 (w/o a/c on) . The Buick FSM states that the fan (1) should come on at 205 -210 (both fans run anytime the a/c is on) .

In my 25 year experience 210 is normal and none of my above mentioned vehicles have ever boiled over. Yes water boils at 212 (atmospheric), but a pressurized system raises the boiling point and "anti-freeze" is also "Coolant" and raises the boiling point. A cooler thermostat rating only affects when the valve is fully open, it has no effect on how hot the engine gets.

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  #1420  
Old 04-11-2023, 03:41 AM
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Sounds like you have most of the bases covered. So yeah, probably check the gage first. Not sure what brand you are using but I have some Autometer digital that seem spot on. Always nice to have three methods to check ... then you can get a consensus.

Initially higher temps coming off highway to street is normal in most cases.

Was the factory stat for that model 195? In that case I'd expect temps from 190 - 200 normal. Often installing a lower range stat doesn't lower temps because the cooling system just isn't designed to shed enough btu's to run that cool, so the stat will just run wide open all the time when up to temperature and the cooling system will seek its own balance between heat the engine produces and heat the system can shed.

On the highway, when steady cruising for a while and it hits 210 with the AC on ... will it sit there for an extended time without rising? If so then I'd expect the cooling system is at least working as it should, it's not being overloaded to the point it goes into a thermal runaway and keeps going up.

Kind of sounds like it's operating normally except the gage is showing higher than expect temps.

I live way up north ... so we lean a bit more to the 50/50 coolant mix for the freeze protection

And as DanC says ... my 2011 GMC truck also has been running right on 210 for years now with never a problem, I very rarely even hear the electric fans come on (it doesn't have a mechanical fan) If those temps are suitable for a vintage engine I don't know.

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