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Old 12-17-2019, 10:58 PM
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Default Muncie M22 or Borg ST10

I currently have a 79 Borg Warner Super T10 in my GTO. Has approximately 2800 miles on it since I rebuilt it and no issues. I can pick up a 69 or 70 M22 freshly rebuilt for 1k from one of my friends who is reputable so rebuild quality isn’t an issue. My ST10 has a 2.43 first gear and my car has a 3.36 rear ratio.

Is it worth selling or trading my ST10 for the rock crusher? In the few other cars I’ve driven I’ve always liked the shift smoothness of the Muncies better than my ST10. Also I’m a little concerned weather or not the ST10 will hold up behind my new 432, whereas a couple of my friends have M22s holding behind their 500-550hp big blocks.

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Last edited by 67gtospud; 12-17-2019 at 11:04 PM.
  #2  
Old 12-18-2019, 12:18 AM
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I would stick with the ST10

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Old 12-18-2019, 10:06 AM
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They will both break if abused (too much speed shifting). I put 30k miles on a t10 behind a 500hp small block, no problems, no speed shifting either, let No one else drive it either,lol.

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Old 12-18-2019, 11:41 AM
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I think you'll like the ST-10 better. They are better transmissions in my opinion. I like the way they shift better than a Muncie at a higher RPM. I changed from a 2.64 low ST-10 to a M22 in one of my cars and it doesn't come out of the hole nearly as good with the Muncie. It does have the gear whine that people seem to like. Both transmissions are stout and nothing wrong with either. But I wouldn't take a Warner out to replace with the M22 unless it was for originality or something like that.

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Old 12-18-2019, 11:52 AM
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The primary advantage in your situation is you can tell everyone you have a "Rock Crusher" transmission in your car. They also have a really noisy gear sound in 1st-3rd gear. The "Rock Crusher" has a panache almost as iconic as saying you have a "hemi". Actual performance, a super T-10 is probably better suited given your rear ratio. Actual gear strength may be a tiny bit stronger with the Muncie and the tooth helix used. Side cover, levers and shift feel a little better IMO in the Super T-10. If you have a Super T-10 in the car and like it, the M22 is not an upgrade IMO, except for bragging rights.

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Old 12-18-2019, 01:14 PM
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Thats good to know. I guess I was under the impression the m22 would hold more since it was built to handle the higher hp cars of the late 60s-early 70s whereas the st10 is from the late 70s when power was cut. I'll just keep my ST10 for now until I either turn it into pieces or decide to do a 6-speed swap.

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Old 12-18-2019, 01:14 PM
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Rebuilt for only 1K would make me want yo have it wrapped up and stuffed under the work bench if I have the money to play with even if only for a while .

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Old 12-18-2019, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve25 View Post
Rebuilt for only 1K would make me want yo have it wrapped up and stuffed under the work bench if I have the money to play with even if only for a while .
Well I'm thinking I'll end up doing that after my engine is complete and my car is back together. I figured it never hurts to have spare parts

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Old 12-18-2019, 02:21 PM
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The M22 also has a different spline on the output shaft so that would have to be dealt with.

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Old 12-18-2019, 02:30 PM
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I would keep what you have. Save the money ,later buy one of the 'new' Muncie s with HD case and new gears. Then you will know what you have. Price higher but you will know the quality. Friend has one,new Muncie in his 65 GTO with 462,Kaufmann heads,he loves it. He Isnt afraid of USING it.My 2cts

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Old 12-18-2019, 02:45 PM
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Both the ST-10 and 70 up M22 will have the same 32 spline output, same fine spline input and same bolt pattern for a shifter. They are the same length also. Some later ST-10’s with the 3:42 1st gear might have a 27 spline output.

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Old 12-18-2019, 03:53 PM
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3.36 is a bit tall to my likings for a close ratio four speed... unless you have some serious torque.

That M22 whine is pretty hard to beat though.

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Old 12-18-2019, 10:06 PM
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The m22 I could get my hands on is a 26 spline input 32 output which is what I currently have with my ST10.

Johnny, I really enjoy the 3.36 gears in my car. Torque isn’t an issue and highway cruising at 70 around 2800 rpm is nice. Thats where the 2.43 first gear in my ST10 is nice too.

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Old 12-18-2019, 10:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unruhjonny View Post
3.36 is a bit tall to my likings for a close ratio four speed... unless you have some serious torque.

That M22 whine is pretty hard to beat though.



I would suggest the same. With your 3:36 rear axle gear, the Muncie with 2:20 1st gear is going to work the clutch and the engine harder on take off.

I'm almost finished building a 427 '67 Corvette with a 3:36 gear that someone swapped an M22 into. I put one of my M20s behind the 427 and kept the M22. Even Chevy would not sell a Vette with an M22 unless it was one of the 20 L88 cars built that year, and they had 4:11 or 4:56 rear gears.



If interested, read the article linked below to compare the T10 and the Muncie.


http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/tra...-transmissions


And I love that gear whine myself!

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Old 12-18-2019, 10:49 PM
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A real M22 for $1000.00 is a deal, I would buy it, sell it for more. Take that money and buy an iron case for your st10. The iron case holds much more power than the aluminum case. My .02

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Old 12-19-2019, 08:05 AM
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Pontiac put an M22 using a 3.42 axle ratio in Firebirds.

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Old 12-19-2019, 09:22 AM
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Get an AutoGear m23z. You can get a ratio that will turn that 3.23 rear end you have into a 4.10 in 1st-3rd and still leave it as a 3.23 in 4th. They are good for 600 lb. ft. of torque which st10s and m22s are not. They whine since they have helical gears. Check their website you can opt for different input/output splines. Cost is about $2300 so you have to pay for them.

http://www.autogear.net/motorsports/

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Old 12-19-2019, 04:46 PM
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To my knowledge, I don’t believe there was issue with the 2.20 Muncie gears actually failing. Instead, when the original Muncie design when pressed into mid-1960s Corvette road-racing program was main case failure. Chevrolet engineers determined that revising the helix angle of the gearset changed the way torque load was applied on the case, reducing failure. This resulted in the M22 heavy-duty 4-speed for high-performance applications and the M21 for more-traditional applications.

I don’t believe that the M22 gearset is really any stronger than an M21 gearset. As one transmission engineer explained to me, the revised gear helix made the M22 transmissions noisier, but when compared to the traditional helix, the M22 gears might in fact be weaker than M21 gears, because they have less tooth-to-tooth contact. And despite rumors that the M22 gears were constructed of a different/improved alloy than the M20/M21 gears, original blueprints list the same 8620-alloy iron for M20, M21, and M22.

It’s worth noting that Chevrolet designed the original T-10 transmission during the ‘50s and contracted its low-volume production to Borg-Warner. Once the exclusivity agreement between Chevrolet and Borg-Warner expired during the early-60s, four-speed volume was so significant that Chevrolet decided to produce it internally and took the opportunity to improve on its design. The Chevrolet-Muncie gear plant assumed production.

Borg-Warner continued to produce its T-10—and its improved Super T-10—to many automakers during the ‘60s. About this time and throughout the early-70s, Borg Warner created a highly-durable version of its popular (first-design) Super T-10 that it sold under its “Power Brute” line for racers. It included a cast iron case, improved synchronizers, and some were even equipped with 9310 “high nickel” gears.

During the early 1970s, volume of the Muncie-produced 4-speed manual dropped so significantly amongst all brands that GM decided it was more efficient to outsource. Borg-Warner developed its “second-design Super T-10” as a quality replacement to GM’s Muncie-built 4-speeds. It began reaching GM assembly plants during the 1974 model year. The production-model second-design Super-T10 contain a cast-aluminum main case with 8620 gears.

A high-performance version of the second-design Super T-10 was released at the same time for the aftermarket Power Brute line. While it included a cast-iron main case, the most often the gears were the same 8620-alloy units found in the production gearbox. Borg-Warner did offer some nickel gears individually, but it seems few fully-assembled Power Brute transmissions received a 9310 nickel gearset, and those that did were seemingly limited to a couple of ratios such as 2.64:1 and the 2.88:1.

In short, and as others have stated, if your Super T-10 is in good working order, it’s unlikely that moving to an original M22 will afford much beyond the characteristic M22 whine. If you’re looking for an all-new transmission with noticeable enhancements over an original while at an affordable cost, the AGE M23 really is the way to go and you can event select a first-gear ratio that’s best suited for your combination and rear axle gearing.

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Old 12-19-2019, 04:50 PM
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Here's an idea. Drive it like you stole it and see if you can break the ST10. If you do, buy the latest and greatest M23 or TKO or T56 or whatever. If not, just keep driving it hard!

  #20  
Old 12-19-2019, 05:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Rotella View Post
To my knowledge, I don’t believe there was issue with the 2.20 Muncie gears actually failing. Instead, when the original Muncie design when pressed into mid-1960s Corvette road-racing program was main case failure. Chevrolet engineers determined that revising the helix angle of the gearset changed the way torque load was applied on the case, reducing failure. This resulted in the M22 heavy-duty 4-speed for high-performance applications and the M21 for more-traditional applications.

I don’t believe that the M22 gearset is really any stronger than an M21 gearset. As one transmission engineer explained to me, the revised gear helix made the M22 transmissions noisier, but when compared to the traditional helix, the M22 gears might in fact be weaker than M21 gears, because they have less tooth-to-tooth contact. And despite rumors that the M22 gears were constructed of a different/improved alloy than the M20/M21 gears, original blueprints list the same 8620-alloy iron for M20, M21, and M22.

It’s worth noting that Chevrolet designed the original T-10 transmission during the ‘50s and contracted its low-volume production to Borg-Warner. Once the exclusivity agreement between Chevrolet and Borg-Warner expired during the early-60s, four-speed volume was so significant that Chevrolet decided to produce it internally and took the opportunity to improve on its design. The Chevrolet-Muncie gear plant assumed production.

Borg-Warner continued to produce its T-10—and its improved Super T-10—to many automakers during the ‘60s. About this time and throughout the early-70s, Borg Warner created a highly-durable version of its popular (first-design) Super T-10 that it sold under its “Power Brute” line for racers. It included a cast iron case, improved synchronizers, and some were even equipped with 9310 “high nickel” gears.

During the early 1970s, volume of the Muncie-produced 4-speed manual dropped so significantly amongst all brands that GM decided it was more efficient to outsource. Borg-Warner developed its “second-design Super T-10” as a quality replacement to GM’s Muncie-built 4-speeds. It began reaching GM assembly plants during the 1974 model year. The production-model second-design Super-T10 contain a cast-aluminum main case with 8620 gears.

A high-performance version of the second-design Super T-10 was released at the same time for the aftermarket Power Brute line. While it included a cast-iron main case, the most often the gears were the same 8620-alloy units found in the production gearbox. Borg-Warner did offer some nickel gears individually, but it seems few fully-assembled Power Brute transmissions received a 9310 nickel gearset, and those that did were seemingly limited to a couple of ratios such as 2.64:1 and the 2.88:1.

In short, and as others have stated, if your Super T-10 is in good working order, it’s unlikely that moving to an original M22 will afford much beyond the characteristic M22 whine. If you’re looking for an all-new transmission with noticeable enhancements over an original while at an affordable cost, the AGE M23 really is the way to go and you can event select a first-gear ratio that’s best suited for your combination and rear axle gearing.
I own one of the cast iron 904 cased "power brute" Super T-10's. When I got it, I completely went though it. Every gear in it had the dimple on it, which I believe means they are a higher nickel content. Mine has two rings on the input shaft, which was the 2:43 low. It has held up behind an L88 427 Chevy fine.

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