[ramair2]

Hi All,

Over the years there have been many threads on rare *and* desireable -not just rare ;-) Pontiacs discussed on these pages. On occassion these 'top shelf' Pontiac supercars occassionally come up for sale either here, in Hemmings, on Ebay or at one of the big auction houses. In my book, 'top shelf' is any round port high comression Pontiac (plus early and late Super Duty cars). Over the past 10+ years I've seen 1970 RA IV TA's, 1969-70 RA IV GTOs and Judges, 1973 Super Duty cars and 62-3 factory Super Duty cars all sell in one public venue or another. Sometiems several examples of each would sell in a single year.

The one exception is Ram Air II cars. Both in GTO and Firebird form.

What gives? Yes I own one (RA II Bird) so maybe I'm biased but I also have owned most of the above and without question the RA II is the most brutal of the bunch (including IV cars).

My quesion is simple. Why do RA II GTOs and Firebirds almost NEVER change hands (even private transactions are exceedingly rare). My only guess is they (esp Birds) were ripped in half due to their 1/4 mile prowess back in the day. (See Jim Mino for more recent proof of that.) Or perhaps, with zero point zero badging (unlike Judge/TA stripes, spoilers, stickers, other psychadelic fanfare, etc) they werent 'saved' during the following decades becasue they were *too* stealth-like?

Anyhow, I'd like to get a better handle on how many of these cars are still around today (restored, or unrestored, with or without their original drivetrain).

Documented RA II cars that I am aware of with owners names withheld for their privacy total 12 in all...(Again, not including he said she said, rumored/undocumented cars)....

10 Birds
8 hard top
2 convertibles
--3 RA II Birds fully restored (1 of which is a convert)--

2 GTOs
both Convertibles
--one RA II GTO fully restored--

My RA II Bird (3 owners, 62k, matching, verdoro, 4speed, bench seat, fully restored)
RA II convert Bird (triple black, 4speed, concours, matching)
RA II Bird (verdoro, 5k miles yet fully restored, matching? 4spd)
RA II convert Bird (matching, complete, 4spd orig red now green (?!) needs full resto)
RA II Bird (4speed, nightshade, matching, in need of full resto)
RA II Bird (4speed, matching two owners, needs full resto)
RA II Bird (lo mi, matching, unrestored, 4spd, green needs cosmetic,sitting 20+yr)
RA II Bird (4speed, autumn bronze, non matching?)
RA II Bird ( "" "" "")
RA II Bird (4speed/auto, black(orig)?, matching?- used at PS drags
RA II convert GTO (triple black, matching, unrestored, 4speed, recent mags)
RA II convert GTO (automatic, lo miles, matching, restored in last 10-15 yrs)
--a few more 'rumored' cars...(but none flat out documened)--

All in all, 110 RA II Birds and 246 RA II GTOs were built in 1968. Very low prodcution to be sure but nevertheless one would think we would see a FEW pop up every now and again. Over the past 15 years Ive seen zero Ram Air IIs correctly advertised for sale in a public forum of any kind.

Comments on any of this?

Also if you can add to this list by all means feel free to do so!

[70ra455]

Is the black gto ra2 convertible 4spd with low low original miles for sale in NYS on your list?

[RA1John]

I think the "sleeper" factor applies here.

Unlike a Judge or Trans Am, the RAII cars had no visual identification,
Plus, most were probably ordered with the intention of racing (1/4 mile or street).
Another point: Most were probably ordered by a customer; not the dealership.
Most of the Broadcast Copies I've seen have a "TAG_____" note on the bottom...
(only found on special orders)... with a last name.

From what I've learned about my '68 RAI Firebird Conv., the original owner special ordered it (last name is on B'Cast sheet.... "TAG COX"). Raced it for a time and then
sold it. The second owner had no idea that it was a rare, Ram Air car (because it was sold with the closed scoops installed). He was also a Chevy guy so the original "WI" engine was pulled and sat in the garage while a built 327 went in. Next owner didn't get the original engine but did point me back to 2nd owner who still had it. I would guess that many of the RAII cars that did survive ended up being 'converted' into average Firebirds... Ram Air parts missing.

Perhaps the original engines were destroyed (or pulled for an upgrade) leaving the car to live on as a 'regular' Firebird (or GTO). Not everyone knows of the Billing History or PHS. Not every car has been discovered (many still lurk in weeds, barns, garages).
Then there are those who own a Firebird or GTO who could care less about it's history;
They drive it and enjoy it as is.

I've heard more than one story about how some of the early Super Duty cars were found and the determination it took to track them down. It all starts with knowing the VIN. Once you have the original VIN, which State, Dealer it was sold to, the hunt begins. We may not be able to track down Osama, but we can find old cars

So, imagine if one had access to the VINs for all RAII or Super Duty cars. Suppose they also had access to files that noted which dealer the car was originally shipped to.
Now you're at least in the state/city. The search begins. DMV records, old Auto Swappers, Newspaper classifieds, insurance records, dealer records. A good detective has connections to info the average person can't access. The key is to know the starting point.

Wouldn't you like to be the person with that sort of access?

[ramair2]

"Is the black gto ra2 convertible 4spd with low low original miles for sale in NYS on your list?"

Yes...

it is the car listed as:

"RA II convert GTO (triple black, matching, unrestored, 4speed, recent mags)"

As for it being for sale...well maybe...RB has gone back and forth on that one. One thing is for sure if it were to sell expect it to be a mega buck deal. I have heard that he's turned town 250K as it sits.

[rdl]

I don't see the R/A II automatic Firebird (formerly belonging to Tony Goodman of P/S fame) on your list either.

There's a certain '69 IV T/A car that may attend Stanton this Fall. If so, together with Tiemann's '67 I, Mino's '68 II, my '69 III and that '69 IV car, all the R/A first gen's will be represented at one event for perhaps the first time in Pontiac history. Kinda' cool don't you think?

[ramair2]

I knew Tonys wasnt matching and I thought (recent HPP mag article?) it was a 'tribute' RA II. If its a documented RA II car my bad on that...I'll add it in...

BTW the three consecutive cars I listed above (the two autmn bronze cars then the black ra 2) were all Mino's...Is Tony's one of Mino's ex-car (ie the auto black car?) If so it is listed in the original 12 I have above...

[70ra455]

He offered me the RA2 Goat for 225K so sometimes the stories we hear aren't all true. It's a real nice car.

[ramair2]

225K...250k

25K is "in the noise" at that point...

FWIW he told me last year that he turned down an offer of 250K. What is fact and what isnt can be in the gray area sometimes. You point is well taken...

[rdl]

Originally Posted by ramair2

... Is Tony's one of Mino's ex-car (ie the auto black car?) If so it is listed in the original 12 I have above...

Either way, you have it then. Sorry if I confused things. When I spoke with Tony, he told me that when he acquired the car, it was one of Jim's old cars less the drivetrain. He had installed the II equipment for P/S racing. Although I never cleared it up with him, I had also heard that it was a R/A I car originally.

Jim's cars are definitely well prep'd for racing. Tony refined it further bringing a decade of NHRA experience to finally achieve the 12.3x that still stands today as the fastest P/S Pontiac. That said, ... if this IV car is ready... lookout.

[68bird400HO]

There is a '68 RAII GTO convertible out east. Black with a gold interior. This may be the one you are thinking about above that you have as "triple black".

Also, I know of a '68 hardtop RAII goat in a collection out east. I have seen it. Red with black interior. I can't remember if it is a numbers car or not.

[MikeNoun]

The RAII cars have always flown under the radar. When the Musclecar boom hit in the late 80's, the investors went after the Shelbys, Hemis, Cobras, Superbirds, Yenkos, LS6's , and other high profile cars. When the market cooled in the early 90's, the other notables began to creep up in value, like RAIV cars, Judges, W-30's, 6-pack cars, etc.

The RAII cars were rarely (if ever) referenced when Musclecar magazines summed up the greatest of the Pontiac performance cars. It was simply a lack of information. I recall one article back in the late 80's profiling a RAII car, and it started out with. "We never heard of a RAII, but they say they made them...."

The RAII didn't receive much press back in the day, and the RAIV quickly overshadowed the RAII. Looking back at Musclecar history through the eyes of a non-Pontiac fan, 1969 was by far the most well known because of the 69 Judge, 69 Trans Am, 69 Grand Prix, and of course the RAIV engine. When contemporary articles are written, the only thing they usually ever mention about 1968 is the 68 GTO, and the Motor Trend Car Of The Year Award.

Frankly, I was always surprised that the 69 Trans Am's took so long to "get legs" among Musclecar collectors. The 69 Trans Am was a purpose built performance car that was the quickest and best handling car Pontiac had ever produced, and was the pinnacle of the 1960-1969 Pontiac performance era. But go figure, these cars were trading in the $15-$20K range in the early 90's when standard 69/70 Judges were double that figure.

Face it, Pontiac made too many high performance cars, and it's hard to get them all in when referencing the Musclecar Era. Pontiac was quite unique in that department.

1964-1972 GTO's : Tri-Powers, RAII's, RAIV's, 455HO's, Royal Bobcats, Judges.
1967-1974 Firebirds : RAII's, Trans Am's, Formulas, 455HO's, RAIV's, SD455's.
1962-1963 : SD421 cars, Tempests, Catalinas, Swiss Cheese race cars.

On top of these, you have 421 Tri-Power full-size cars, 69-72 Grand Prix's, lesser known GT-37 and T-37's, the 2+2's, and several others.

And that's why I love Pontiacs.

[74SDformula]

If I recall correctly, all of the VIN numbers of the '69 and '70 TA's that were equipped with the RAIV engine have been listed in Pete McCarthy's book. Are all of the VIN's known for the '68 RAII cars? If so, are they listed anywhere?

[ramair2]

Yes, all RA II VINS are known....

Assuming of course you have unfeddered access to all Pontiac billing histories...

[Steve Hoog]

One more time for good measure. Gary asked me to post it again and I think he may actually make a post about his this time.

[74SDformula]

So am I correct in assuming that the VIN numbers of the RAII cars are NOT publicly known.

[muscle_collector]

steve, thanks for posting the pic. this bird is phs documented and has a ---- paint code and was originally the camaro rallye green (not sure that is what the technical name is for chevy). the really bright metallic green. sometime in the late 70's it was painted this black cherry color. it is a numbers matching engine and 4 speed transmission. has the original 3:90 rear. i think it is the fastest stock pontiac that i own. years ago, a friend of mine and i would take out one of my ra 4 gto's or his ra 4 gto and one of my ra 2 gto's (all were 4 speed cars) and would take turns driving them to make sure it wasnt anything to do with the driver and race them out in the country where i lived. it didnt matter how well we tuned each car and didnt matter who was driving, the ra 2 always won. we on a few occasions ran one of my ra 4 birds against the ra 2 gto and the ra 2 would win one and then lose one. always very very close race. the bird was running 12:50 range at the track (best time of 12:46). we also ran the birds against each other and this ra 2 bird would put at least 2 to 3 car lengths on my ra 4 bird everytime.
as far as rarity, the ra 2 cars have always been the hardest to locate (for me anyway). i have found somewhere around 10 of the gto's (ones not in collectors hands) and was able to buy 3 of them. snoozed on a couple and missed out. i have only found 2 birds and was able to buy 1. the other one still sits in a garage where it probably will until the owners family sells his estate when he dies some day. my personal opinion is that they are the most over looked musclecar there is.

[Jim Mino]

FYI, the last time I spoke with JM of PHS there were about 14 RA II Firebirds documented including my two autumn bronze cars. Tony Goodman's Black P/S racer
was originally a 400HO/auto car that I restored, converted to a RA II and sold less engine. The car is now owned by Rick Watson who still races it in P/S.

Does anyone have an idea of what a serious collector might pay for a documented concours-type frame-off restored '68 RA II Bird?

[rdl]

Good to see you post, Jim. Hope all's well and look forward to seeing you again at Stanton.

[68RamII]

RamAir2,

I know of 3 68 Ram Air II GTO convertibles. One in IL, one in NY and mine which is located in Ohio. I also know of another 68 GTO Ram Air II hardtop located close to me in Ohio.

Mine is currently undergoing a frame off restoration. It would be great if I could find a 68 GTO expert that could help supply information for this restoration. Does anyone know who the true 68 GTO expert would be?

My car is Flam Burg exterior with white top and parchment interior. It is also a 4 sp car. At this time I am still in search of the correct 7028273 carb and a passenger side exhaust manifold.

I dont know about the value of these cars but when I am talking to others and explain that I have a Ram Air II car they either dont believe me or give me a look like... HOLY COW.

Any help is appreciated.
Thank You,
John

[ANDYA]

I recently find out about a RA II GTO near me. Spoke to the owners brother who also is a Pontiac guy. Said that his brother has had the car over 20 yrs and that its rotting away under tarps next to the house. The original motor is in his basement. The owner does not have the money to restore the car and according to the brother probably never will. I asked his brother why dont he sell the car to someone who will restore it. He told me the car is sentimental to his brother and brings him back to his youth just to have it around. I spoke to another friend of mine who knows the house and he did say there is a 68 GTO on the property but I can't confirm if it's a real RA II.