[Jcoyer]

Hi to all. Oh! You Skeptics. Thanks to Jason for making me aware of this web site.

I see a lot of questions and Doubts. Guess what, I don't blame you. I'm a skeptic as well. So here goes some of the facts. You are certainly correct the build date of 3/24/69 is after the auto show would have been held. The correct build date for the car is 11/04/68. The original paper work could not be found at the time of sale, so it was regenerated using the sale date(also documented by Jim Mattison). Plant code is LOR. Rally Guages included the 160 mph speedometer and the 8,000 Rpm Tach. Now you could be right but the tach is there as shown in the pictures. I believe at some point the car was hit in the front end and that is what happened to the hood tach. My nephew owned the car since 1994 the guy he purchased it from owned it for four or five years and he said this is the way it was when he purchased it. And he said the Guy he purchased it from said it was like this when he purchased it. Bottom line I know a lot about the car history.

At the end of the show season the car was sold to Royal Pontiac in Los Angeles.

If you send me your E-mail addresses I will forward you a copy of the E-mail from Jim Mattison.

To my fellow skeptics. Thanks for the interest.

John

By The way if anyone Knows how I can get pictures of the car on the Pontiac display. Please let me know.

Also I originally thought this car as others did that it was the 69 Transam prototype. That's why I went looking for paper work and authentication. Jim Mattison informed me the Transam Prototype was a Stick shift car.

[Kurt S]

Wow, John V. You like to type more than me.

I had thought about the car not selling and sitting on the lot until Dec, but that seemed unlikely, esp since they already had a $300 discount to include and it was a good color and good options.

Maybe they sold it to the dealer and then PMD had them do another car show with it? (That seems unlikely. Shows are planned in advance.)

The timeline is funky no matter how you figure it. 5 months after it was built it gets invoiced to the dealer. 8 months later there's a large adjustment.
Like you said, the reason is lost. Several possibilities, none more likely than the others.

The ebay convert was a zone stock car.

John (Jcoyer),
Welcome to the forum.
Can you send me a picture of the trim tag?
I'd also be curious to see Jim's email. My email is KurtS2@gmail.com.

Thanks!

[John V.]

I sent an email message to Jcoyer, hope we get to see more about this 'bird.

Kurt, of course, why say it in 5 words when you can use 500??!!

I'm curious about the ebay convert. The one I've logged is N107842, was sold 2/20/70 at substantial discount to Jules Myers Pontiac in Los Angeles. It has a Z code Invoice Identification No., but I would not claim it to have been sold unused out of Zone Stock inventory.

Is this the same car you refer to?

By my interpretation, Zone Stock inventory would show the Z code in the ID No. But not ALL Z code ID nos. indicate a car that was sitting unused in Zone Stock inventory.

This particular 'bird was built in July '69. It is possible that it sat unused and that Pontiac eventually accepted a "Special Price" for it, out of Zone Stock. But I think that the heavily discounted "Special Price" bids were only for used cars. In this case, I suspect this heavily loaded convertible was ordered up by the LA Zone Sales office for use as a Company Car, driven by some exec in that office for about 6 months and then offered up as a prior used car to the Zone dealers, Myers' bid being accepted.

I have come across a number of similar Pontiac Invoices for steeply discounted cars. Typically, they are heavily optioned and often convertibles, making them among the more expensive models that Pontiac would produce. And the Invoice "Date Shipped" (ie. the date it was finally sold) always about 6 months to a year after the car was built. I think it is unlikely that these cars sat unused and IMO, most likely were used as Company Cars. Some of the Invoices reflect a "CC" number, some don't, but I think that information was at the whim of the Data Entry clerk at the time the car was sold to decide what additional notes to reflect on the Invoice.

Cars sold out of Zone Stock as unused in Feb. '70 during what I believed was a "fire sale" to unload the last of the remaining '69 Inventory will not show any discounting on the Dealer Invoice. I believe any incentives that would have been offered were provided outside of the Dealer Invoice, so not reflected on the paperwork that comes from PHS.

On a couple of the Zone Office Company Cars, a 2nd or even 3rd "Invoice" has been provided by PHS. Based on this limited paperwork, I have deduced that Pontiac Accounting produced an "Invoice" record for every car as it was produced, probably so they could track them and Account for them on their books. The cars were effectively "debited" to the Zone Office or whatever Dept. within PMD that took possession of the asset. In the case of the Zone Stock inventory cars, presumably the asset was on the books for that Zone Office. The Date Shipped would be consistent with the time frame the car was actually built. Then when the car was sold to a Dealer, a new Invoice was generated. The Date Shipped would indicate the time frame that the Dealer took possession.

Another typical difference between Invoices for cars sold unused out of Zone Stock inventory, they will still reflect Hold Back Amounts and Destination Amounts. Cars that were sold "used" by the Zone will have these amounts zeroed out on the Invoice.

Kurt, let me know if the convert you reference is the one I identified or some other 'bird.

[Kurt S]

You got it, that's the one I was referring to.
I'm a newbie at these docs, but I had noticed that some amounts were 0 on some invoices and I was wondering abou that....

Thanks!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Jcoyer

By The way if anyone Knows how I can get pictures of the car on the Pontiac display. Please let me know.

Welcome Jcoyer -

Do you mean pictures of the car on display at the LA Auto show?

The only way I would know to do that would be to Google and go through everything that pops up.

The Chicago Show has done a very good job archiving and documenting their show photos but I am not aware of anything for LA.

K

[John V.]

Well, I think I may have come across a couple things of interest within this discussion.

First pic, don't know if I ever posted this pic before. Found it on the web. It was taken at the '69 Detroit Auto Show. Wonder what became of this '69 'bird? Love it or hate it, it would be fun to see it today.

Second pic was found today while trying to locate anything from the '69 LA Auto Show.

It turns out that the LA Show was apparently known as the Southern California International Automobile Show. Also apparently, it traditionally was the first major North American show of the new model year. Detroit followed, then Chicago, and finally NY from what I can tell.

The pic is of a letter sent to a perspective exhibitor. It would appear that Jcoyer's '69 'bird could not possibly have been displayed at the '69 (model year) So Cal Auto Show in Los Angeles.

The Show took place at the Pan Pacific Auditorium in LA, opened Oct. 24, 1968 and ended on Nov. 3, 1968.

According to what PHS told Jcoyer, his car was final assembled Nov. 4, 1968 which coincides with what I expected for a 10E Time built code '69 Lordstown VIN.

Kinda difficult for a car to roll off the Lordstown Final Assembly line on Nov. 4, 1968 and have appeared at the LA Show Oct. 24 thru Nov. 3.

Jcoyer, see my email suggesting you discuss further with Mattison. Based on what I have now discovered, I suspect Mattison was shooting from the hip when he matter-of-factly stated in his email to you that your car was displayed at the LA Show. His only basis for this claim appears to be the word "DISPLAY" on the Invoice. I think if you ask him, you will discover that he was just guessing.

This is what I have discovered, perhaps there is other evidence that will prove something else. But for now, I'd have to say your car was not displayed at the LA Show as Mattison claimed.

[MikeNoun]

John, great research (as always). Great photo of the yellow 69 Bird at the Detroit Auto Show!! Never saw that one before!

I wasn't going to say anything, but as long as we have come to the conclusion this car was not at the L.A. Auto Show...

A comment was made by Jcoyer that, "Rally Gauges included the 160 mph speedometer and the 8,000 Rpm Tach." Actually, all 1969 Firebirds received a 160 mph speedometer. I know it's nit-picking, but just for anyone following this thread, I've heard many GTO guys (and Firebird owners) believe they have some sort of "special" 1969 Firebird because of the 160 mph speedometer, so they believe it must be a Firebird 400 or Trans Am.

And, "Jim Mattison informed me the Transam Prototype was a Stick shift car." The prototype was an automatic RAIV car, so I'm not sure if Jim was mistaken, or perhaps you misunderstood what he said.

Just my .02 cents, fro your average everyday "skeptic".

[tajunkman]

Since 70 models came out late, I wonder if it could have been displayed at a later show? Not challenging anyone. Just wondering what's the deal. If Mattison would jump to a conclusion like that, it could still be something special....

[MikeNoun]

I wasn't going to say anything until we get some more comments from John V., Jcoyer, or Jim Mattison, but it's possible the car was displayed at the November 1969 (not 1968) Southern California International Automobile Show (or L.A. Auto Show). A Nov. 1969 show would normally display all the new 1970 models, but with the delayed introduction of the 1970 F-Bodies, delayed all the way until late February 1970, Pontiac could have continued showing the 1969 Firebirds at the November 1969 show.

Just my .02 cents....

[Kurt S]

I'd hinted at that by saying it could have sent to another auto show. Seems doubtful they'd use a year old car for the show, esp one PMD didn't own. And then what did PMD do with it for the first 5 months??

John V,
Nice research on the dates. I had wondered when, but was too lazy.

69 Camaros had an optional yellow interior close to that Firebird's!

[tajunkman]

So, Let me try to recap...

Jcoyer tells us that THE CAR WAS AT THE LA SHOW IN SIXTY-NINE. The basis of his claims is what he's told been by past owners AND J Mattison at PHS.

Yesterday the PY experts/ skeptics researched enough to dismiss the claim as wishful thinking on the part of the owner... Concluded Jim Mattison was was probably just guessing.....Stated, rather matter of factly, that there was no way it could be at the LA auto show.....

Now, as of this morning, it could have been at the LA show in 69, which is what the owner claimed all along....... only it's "doubtful", because the car was already a year old....

[Kurt S]

There was no way it could be at the 1969 model year LA show.
It could have been at the 1970 model year LA show. But I doubt they'd use a year-old car cause it probably had miles on it - they want to show off new cars, not used cars.

Still lots of speculation with no much evidence to go on.

No reply by Jcoyer to this thread and I haven't received an email from him.

[tajunkman]

Im here making a point about how often experts and skeptics don't adequately research a given subject. Lots of reasons for this, but mainly because they think they already know the answer.

This lazy research leaves the expert more time to tell the non experts why he is right about the given subject.

Bad thing is, if the expert is wrong, the ones who listen to the experts will be misinformed.

In his ebay auction jcoyer said --

"That's right, if you had gone to the Los Angeles auto show in 1969 you would have seen this car sitting on the pontiac display. "

1)
Without taking the words "in 1969" into consideration, and by forgetting about the late introduction of the 70.5s-- It was concluded here on py, that there was no way it could have been at the LA show. Go back and read it.

2)
As I understand it Jim Mattison also told Jcoyer that it was at the LA show.

Usually PHS is the final word. Apparently not in this case...

It was determined here on py, that Mattison was probably guessing--"shooting from the hip"

He has a phone. Why not call him before posting that?

For me that comment also raises the question -Does PHS really operate in such a haphazzard fashion??? And would such behavior really be acceptable???

I could go on and on and on ....but Im done.

Nothing personal against anyone . Honest!



PS- Good luck Jcoyer

[keith k]

Originally Posted by tajunkman

For me that comment also raises the question -Does PHS really operate in such a haphazzard fashion??? And would such behavior really be acceptable???

I would love to be proven otherwise, but I don't get the impression Jim Mattison invests too much time capitalizing on the resources he has control of to research the history of these cars.

[Transamric]

Originally Posted by keith k

I would love to be proven otherwise, but I don't get the impression Jim Mattison invests too much time capitalizing on the resources he has control of to research the history of these cars.

I couldn't have said it better.

PHS is a great resource & we are very thankful to have the information available that Mattison provides. But always the final answer? Not hardly. Why? Remember, at the time these cars were new, Jim was working in the Chevrolet COPO Office, not Pontiac. Not everything was done the exact same way in every GM division.
No one "knows it all". Not Mattison, not me, not John or Keith. And not the cars current owner.
So if Mattison has information that states without a doubt this particular Firebird was at the '69 LA Show, then share that proof with the owner so it can be offered as proof at the time of sale. If there is no documentation, then the cars' exact history will be left up to speculation. Which is what we are doing here, lacking that proof,....speculating to arrive as close to the truth as possible.

[70Steve]

Love the yellow 'bird photo!!

I love the 'Why, How and Where' of this ebay car (and any old PMD offering truth be known), I hope something solid turns up. Don't want to stray off topic, but thought I'd share this pic, seeing as the late release of the 1970 2nd Gens was mentioned.. I can't recall ever seeing any other '69 Firebirds shown in a 1970 Pontiac brochure. Was this the only time?

[se428bandit]

Originally Posted by 70Steve

Love the yellow 'bird photo!!

I love the 'Why, How and Where' of this ebay car (and any old PMD offering truth be known), I hope something solid turns up. Don't want to stray off topic, but thought I'd share this pic, seeing as the late release of the 1970 2nd Gens was mentioned.. I can't recall ever seeing any other '69 Firebirds shown in a 1970 Pontiac brochure. Was this the only time?

Well well,isn't that interesting.

[Transamric]

Steve, is there a printing date on that brochure? Don't think I have that one. Could you post a pic of the cover?

[MikeNoun]

Marketing the 1969 Firebirds as 1970 models started when they removed all references to "1969" in the Firebird brochure, I believe the cutoff was March 1969.

Here's a promotional photo I have for a 1970 Bonneville Wagon. The 69 Trans Am in the background is wearing a "1970" plate, the same plate as the Bonneville in the foreground (I scanned this in small in order to upload, so you won't be able to read the plate, but I can see the "1970" plate in my original photo)

[muscle_collector]

mike, that is a really cool photo. i have never seen that one before. what is it out of? thanks for posting it.