[John Haley]

Originally Posted by rupp

It's info he took from another book almost word for word & he used their pics. And some of it is just his theory as he put it in his own words.

Sybil is that you again?

[MikeNoun]

Big Moe, this could very well be THE car. I think you just need some more documentation. The original Hot Rod road test of that silver prototype car is quite well known, and the car (or photographs) were used in many other 1969 publications. Someone in the 70's or 80's may have added the wing and extractors, or.....this may be the actual car.

Odd though that the hood is gone, the RAIV engine is gone, the RAIV pans are gone, and the wing was gone, yet someone kept the extractors on, and left the car silver?

Big Moe, are the front fender extractors functional? (holes in the fenders)

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by John Haley

My opinion is that this is the silver proto type 1969 Trans Am, it has all the right options and some paper work that points in the right direction.

John, you could very well be correct! The only thing I find a bit strange is why the invoice doesn't have the ENG line, along with the test car number, like the invoice below (Test Car 9749).



If this IS the Trans Am prototype, then engineering would have had to install the wing, fenders, extractors, and a RAIV engine. I would assume with all that work, and the development of the car from a design standpoint, it would probably have a Test Car number. This one appears to have been prepped for the show circuit. But, this is NOT to say this isn't the Trans Am prototype, it may be.

Interesting to note that in the Hot Rod test, the reviewers stated the fit and finish were impeccable, every panel was straight, the nose pieces all fit perfectly. That was typical of a car that was slated for the press fleet, or for the show circuit, and noted as DISPLAY on the invoice (like Big Moe's). The engineering department adjusted every door gap, aligned every panel, and smoothed out the paint to show quality.

Here's some more pics of the silver Trans Am from various publications....





This one is actually an outtake photo

[Big Moe]

Many thanks to John Haley for preserving what he & I beleive tobe the correct rear spoiler from my car. Its just another piece of the car tobe reunited.Now the quest to find the hood if anyone my knows of its whereabouts by all means contact me.I have spoke to Dan Jensen about putting together a RAIV motor for the car. Mike, no wholes behind the extractors.

[Cammer-6]

just a long shot but can anyone run the plates on the car in photo and cross over to the VIN?

[The Boss]

The deep discount to Royal could be reflective of the heavy modifications made to the car in engineering. I would expect the dealership may have removed the fiberglass hood and replaced it with the 400 one - possibly replaced the motor too.

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by rupp

I have read post on here saying there was never a 1969 trans am that came from lordstown. What's the sudden change of thinking?

There is no sudden change of thinking - the only one who believes there were TA's built at Lordstown is that nutcase Dave who's not here any more.

[70Steve]

Originally Posted by keith k

Same car?

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...d.php?t=618334

It appears to be...JCoyer was the ebay sellers i.d. and tthat matches the PY name when he came on here and mentioned this car.

I just reread that thread...can't believe that was 12 months ago.
Wasn't the car unrestored and about eight and a half grand last time on ebay?

Interesting car ya got Big Moe. Lots of options matched the Hot Rod test car article.

[70Steve]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Big Moe, this could very well be THE car. I think you just need some more documentation. The original Hot Rod road test of that silver prototype car is quite well known, and the car (or photographs) were used in many other 1969 publications. Someone in the 70's or 80's may have added the wing and extractors, or.....this may be the actual car.

Odd though that the hood is gone, the RAIV engine is gone, the RAIV pans are gone, and the wing was gone, yet someone kept the extractors on, and left the car silver?

Big Moe, are the front fender extractors functional? (holes in the fenders)

Mike, in the latest ebay Q+A, JCoyer mentions that he has replaced the fenders.

Also, just to clarify Mike, those pictures you added are of two different silver cars aren't they? Different rego's and the interior shot wasn't from the Hot Rod road test was it?

[boater bill]

Originally Posted by Big Moe

Mike, no wholes behind the extractors.

The holes not being punched is interesting. The trim tag was also missing the D-80 for the rear spoiler. This is looking more like the preproduction prototype since those known TA features are missing.

Congrats on this find Moe

[MikeNoun]

Originally Posted by The Boss

The deep discount to Royal could be reflective of the heavy modifications made to the car in engineering. I would expect the dealership may have removed the fiberglass hood and replaced it with the 400 one - possibly replaced the motor too.

Probably exactly what happened. Some of the photos were taken at the PMD Engineering building, still wearing Michigan MFG plates. At some point, the car was sent to California for the Hot Rod road test. The photo I posted earlier showing the hills in the background is Los Angeles (according to the Hot Rod article caption), so the car ended up on the West Coast.

The car most likely shipped back to Michigan for final road tests, evaluation, etc. After the white/blue paint job scheme (and trim) were set for the production Trans Am, Pontiac would have dumped this car to a dealer. In order to do so, engineering woould have removed the fiberglass hood, RAIV, reinstalled the matching 400 engine for legal purposes, removed the fenders, wing, etc., then discounted the car back to California dealer Royal Pontiac (not the famous Royal Pontiac in Michigan).

Another possibility is that since the car was in California already, and the car was invoiced to Royal, the original engine may have been shipped out for reinstallation (or an SR engine was installed), and the dealer ordered a 400 hood, trunk lid (no holes for wing), fenders, etc, then repainted the car in order to sell it.

Since this was a pre-production car, it would not have the D80 on the trim plate, so technically this not a 1969 Trans Am, but a Firebird 400. But if this is the actual prototype, it's a great find. I would love to find some paperwork though to be sure. The PHS is pretty convincing, and fits the scenario.

Big Moe, that brings up another question. Does the 400 engine currently in the car match the VIN?

[intense]

It would be a great find to have this car ... However i guess i always thought after looking at the pictures of the silver 69 Trans Am .. They the took that car and painted it white to be the promo 69 Trans Am ... The one in the brochure .. Maybe not .. but the hood appeared to be the same as well as the 400 and firebird logos were on the car .. But if not Great find !!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

just a long shot but can anyone run the plates on the car in photo and cross over to the VIN?

No - Manufacturer's plates are not registered to a specific car, just the OE or aftermarket manufacturer (Ford, GM, Chrysler, Hurst, Saleen, etc).

In fact - that's the point of an M Plate: they can legally be swapped from car to car "willy nilly". Need to take an unplated car for a ride? Slap an "M" plate on it (the registration is taped to the back of the plate, rather than in the car). The only legal requirement is that a paper log be kept (by the manufacturer) showing the history and usage of that individual plate, in case the state asks for it. I'm sure that usage log is looooooooong gone.

Incidently, M plates are legal for use on public roadways only for (a) actual in progress road testing or (b) transporting the vehicle from one test site to another. Technically they are not legal for general "pool" use or everyday driving (unless, of course, that's the actual purpose of the testing and it can be supported with documentation). Not all states have reciprocity, either, so if you see an M plate on a car in Arizona it really should be an Arizona plate (rather than a Michigan M plate). I'm not sure about California - they have other goofy laws specifically to make things difficult...

K

[Judge273]

Glad to see Dan Jensen get the build. You will be impressed with the power a RA IV can provide under those gears.

[gto4door]

Mike N,
Which TA prototype is that interior shot from on post #43?

[RAJ7395]

Big Moes car is an auto with console. The press photo shows a manual with no console. Must not be of the same car.

[MikeNoun]

Apologies to all! I just realized that the interior pic I posted was not of the silver car, it was of one of the pre-production cars. One of the original magazine road tests (Road Test Magazine) used pictures of the silver car AND one of the pre-production white/blue cars in the same article.

I meant to post the pic of the interior photo below.

Just a side note ; notice that the MFG plates are different from one pic to another. I also have a couple more tail shots of the silver car, but not much to see.

[gto4door]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Apologies to all! I just realized that the interior pic I posted was not of the silver car, it was of one of the pre-production cars. One of the original magazine road tests (Road Test Magazine) used pictures of the silver car AND one of the pre-production white/blue cars in the same article.

I meant to post the pic of the interior photo below.

Just a side note ; notice that the MFG plates are different from one pic to another. I also have a couple more tail shots of the silver car, but not much to see.

Thanks for the clarification. I had always thought the Hot Rod Magazine Silver TA was an automatic.

[The Boss]

Being that the Silver car was an Auto and the pre-production car was a stick - that eliminates the idea that they were both the same car.

So the Silver car is a styling exercise, was used for the magazine test, then gets sold out in CA at a deep discount.

Nice grab Moe - the rest of us must have been sleeping! What engine code are you going to use on the RA IV? Since RA IV cars weren't being produced yet, my guess would be they used a service dated RA II block - (same casting number I know), and a pair of the full casting number 722 heads.

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Cammer-6

Keith I still have the build sheet to a car I stupidly parted out,and later found the build sheet in the rear seat springs.
I ll pull it out later to refresh my failing memory ,but it said something like prep for San Fransisco auto show Jan 20 67
It was a red 400 and from memory body # was 000033.
Is there any other info I should relate to on this?

Probably not....

Sounds more like a "production" style car being cleaned up for auto show display.

Those got a different treatment than the cars that were "pimped" (lol) by the Studio to be shown as a styling exercise, like this TA or the pearl white 72 Bill Mitchell car being discussed in another thread.

K