[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is the other article on Carl's T/A that appeared in "Cars and Parts"magazine. It ran around the late mid to late1980's. I could not find my original magazine so I used the re-print we used in the newsletter for the Royal Pontiac Club of America.

[bossbirdta]

thats the same car in both articles. the Cars and Parts feature is form May 1984. i have this for two reasons, the T/A is obvious but also because my Dad did all the Body and Paint work on the 1938 International Wagon thats on the cover.....as for this T/A, it sits about 10 miles away from where i am now......

[Guilty]

Back in the 80's there was a third convertible in the Detroit area. The guy who owned it bought it in western Canada. He lived off 13 mile east of Telegraph, and I believe he sold it to someone out west a few years later. I remember Carl's car at Autorama when he had those BF Goodrich belted TA tires with the thick white letters. Offered him a set of Polyglas GT's, but he didn't want to spend the money on them.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Thanks. Now I how I can find the magazine, again.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Humm, Never saw that one. Bunkie Knudsen lived over there.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Scott Tieman did a restoration on the one with the white interior and had that one on display at Autorama a few years back too.

[MikeNoun]

Dr. Schiffer, thank you for posting.

I recall that 1987 Musclecar Review article. At the time, not much information was out about 69 Trans Am's in general, and what WAS out was a bit cloudy. Some magazines reported that the side scoops were phony, and another magazine reported that they weren't sure if the stripes should be over the spoiler. I can't blame a lot of these 1980's magazines for printing incorrect info though. Many times, the writers simply went to their file cabinets and pulled promo photos left over in their archives from Car Craft, Hot Rod, etc, and some of those photos didn't match what they were seeing on a feature car. Heck, I remember one magazine saying that Trans Am's were available in "many colors", simply because of the 1969 Hot Rod article on the Palladium Silver car!

But I remember the Musclecar Review article well, because it's a RAIII, and the spec sheet on the last page has "RAIV" (oops). I also recall how the grilles were not blacked-out, and that someone (maybe the dealer) added a hood tach, as the hood tach was not available on the 69 Trans Am.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

Dr. Schiffer, thank you for posting.

I recall that 1987 Musclecar Review article. At the time, not much information was out about 69 Trans Am's in general, and what WAS out was a bit cloudy. Some magazines reported that the side scoops were phony, and another magazine reported that they weren't sure if the stripes should be over the spoiler. I can't blame a lot of these 1980's magazines for printing incorrect info though. Many times, the writers simply went to their file cabinets and pulled promo photos left over in their archives from Car Craft, Hot Rod, etc, and some of those photos didn't match what they were seeing on a feature car. Heck, I remember one magazine saying that Trans Am's were available in "many colors", simply because of the 1969 Hot Rod article on the Palladium Silver car!

Off Topic: Mike, Did you provide the Drag Racing and Nascar clips used on the American Icon: Muscle Car episode
(w Wangers driving the 1963 Pontiac Swiss-Cheese Cat) mentioned in the thread below?
If so which DVD is it on? Thank you in advance.

http://forums.maxperformanceinc.com/...42#post4428342

On Topic: OK - let's resume this great Pontiac historical discussion; Where are all of the 8 of 8 1969 Trans Am Convertibles?

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Yes, both articles are on the, lets call it the Carl Rawley car (second owner). This is the automatic car with the hood tac. sold through Clohecy Pontiac in Detroit. It is the car Carl bought from my the orginal owner, another neighbor, in 1975. As compared to the Adam's 4 speed car that came through PMD's retail store shown in the book.

Both cars had the black and white Michigan license plate. Different numbers, different cars. Most people knew that the '69 cars only came in one color. Just like the '70 1/2 and '71 only came in two colors. Unfortunately, you can never trust everything you read in an enthusiast magazine. The authors aren't always an expert on car, model etc. Not their fault. They have deadlines and are raerly close to the action. ie Assembly lines and engineering.

The confusion with the '69 T/A is because there where a few engineering T/A's running around, silver and carousel red with some black accents. Then an author looks through some old files at their magazine and don't have the whole story behind the pictures from some one else. Then they make a leap. People read it and believe it. For years! Old saying, "A lie will make it a round the world before the truth can get its boots on." Be carefull what you read in the enthusiast magazines. They mean well.

Any thing can happen at a factory. Before, doing and the end of a particular model year. The '69 Judge emblem on the glove box and the GTO on the dash pad in the first 2,000 program cars built in january 1969. This was an interal battle with the emblems during early production.

Then there is the 4 1966 Tempest 421's and 4 1962 421 Tempests. Built in the Pontiac factory. All went to Daytona for testing in their respective years. I know one became the rarely seen Royal '62 Tempest. And NO Pontiac Historic Services will NOT have documents on these. These type of cars go though engineering or some other dept. The Mickey Thompson car was not one of these factory cars. There was a magazine article on how to build the Thompson car. Mickey had a lot of PMD engineering support.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

When Keith or I'm are in dought about the Trans Am's we go to the "Real Source". How about Herb Adams who shows up at our Saturday morning gatherings. Here he is with his latest car. Contessa

Or we just ask Tom Goad. Or even Ben Harrison PMD product development. As Seen with the Royal Pontiac Club of America at the 2011 Dream Cruise in front of Fresard Buick- GMC. (My Black Bird is behind them). Both Tom Nell and Tom Goad helped develop the Black Bird's original engine.

[MikeNoun]

The Palladium Silver prototype was a one-off, built as a Firebird 400, automatic, non-Ram Air, converted in the engineering garage (in two different configurations), and the engineering guys installed a RAIV. This car was later tested by Hot Rod Magazine, and photos of that car also ended up in various other publications. That car is currently in the hands of a PY member, and looks the same as it did in 1969.

There weren't any Carousel Red 69 Trans Am's. I think the car you may be recalling is the Carousel Red engineering car (#9723) that was built as an engineering exercise, and to have some fun on Woodward Ave. The engineering department used the new 1970 455 block, they installed RAIV heads, a 1966 tri-power setup, and a 4-tailpipe exhaust system with a Tiger Button VOE setup, and installed some Bonneville 455 emblems on the hood. They also blacked out the tail panel, added some black sword stripes on the hood scoop nacelles, blacked out the headlight bezels, and added some black accents on the body side windsplits.

But this car had nothing to do with the 69 Trans Am, other than the engineering guys used a Trans Am rear spoiler.

[MikeNoun]

Alvin, no, I didn't supply any footage, but I have the 1962-1963 Royal Pontiac clips up on YouTube, and they're on my "1959-1969 NHRA Drag Racing" DVD set. I also put up some home movies on YouTube for Keith, which has had a LOT of views!

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

When Keith or I'm are in doubt about the Trans Am's we go to the "Real Source". How about Herb Adams who shows up at our Saturday morning gatherings. Here he is with his latest car. Contessa

Or we just ask Tom Goad. Or even Ben Harrison PMD product development. As Seen with the Royal Pontiac Club of America at the 2011 Dream Cruise in front of Fresard Buick- GMC. (My Black Bird is behind them). Both Tom Nell and Tom Goad helped develop the Black Bird's original engine.

That's one of the things I enjoy about our "Cars and Coffee" events at the bookstore: not only do cool cars show up but often the guys who designed them show up.

K

[Tenney]

I think Ron Monchak at McManus may've had a '69 T/A 'vert, as well?

[Cammer-6]

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric M. Schiffer

Scott Tieman did a restoration on the one with the white interior and had that one on display at Autorama a few years back too.

I think that was the one Dick B bought from Marty

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by bossbirdta

Ummmm, this particular was sold off by the Adams Family a few years ago. it was bought by someone from the Pacific Northwest and is supposed to be going under a full restoration. i can tell you it was sitting in a garage in San Francisco and was said to be in poor condition but all intact. the selling price, so i was told was north of $3/4 mill.

I am waiting to hear from Jim Wangers to see if he knows any thing about a sale of the car since he keeps in touch with Adams. Should hear from Jim within the next day or two.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Originally Posted by MikeNoun

The Palladium Silver prototype was a one-off, built as a Firebird 400, automatic, non-Ram Air, converted in the engineering garage (in two different configurations), and the engineering guys installed a RAIV. This car was later tested by Hot Rod Magazine, and photos of that car also ended up in various other publications. That car is currently in the hands of a PY member, and looks the same as it did in 1969.

There weren't any Carousel Red 69 Trans Am's. I think the car you may be recalling is the Carousel Red engineering car (#9723) that was built as an engineering exercise, and to have some fun on Woodward Ave. The engineering department used the new 1970 455 block, they installed RAIV heads, a 1966 tri-power setup, and a 4-tailpipe exhaust system with a Tiger Button VOE setup, and installed some Bonneville 455 emblems on the hood. They also blacked out the tail panel, added some black sword stripes on the hood scoop nacelles, blacked out the headlight bezels, and added some black accents on the body side windsplits.

But this car had nothing to do with the 69 Trans Am, other than the engineering guys used a Trans Am rear spoiler.

You are right the "Mules" were based on other Firebirds. That is what the pre-production Trans AM's are. Test Mules.

At this very moment you have me thinking about which hood was on the car. I remember the accent stripes on the sides and back tail light panel. The 455 is ringing a bell too. I'll have to ask Gordon Heidecker who used to visit his father, who at the time was now Head Engine Engineer. Gordon built a '69 Trans Am clone about 20 years ago in carousel red because he liked the looks of a carousel red engineering Mule that he had seen back then.

I know John Sawruk had shown me pictures of the car again a few years ago. I remember he said he had driven it and was on the Adhoc commitee too. John did a lot of performance testing at the GM Proving Grounds back then. Unfortunately, I don't see John any more since passed away from Cancer. We both of us shared the same birthday.

Gordon now builds '69 T/A's off the new Camaro. He'll be previewing his convertible version at this years SEMA. But attached is his '69 Carousel Red T/A clone behind his last years SEMA T/A car.

Royal Pontiac was in fact PMD off site Engineering. The Royal Racing Team was funded by PMD's Engineering Budget until Jim McDonald took over from John Delorean. That is when all parts went to John's brother George, including the Engineering/ Press cars.

Here are two more 1969 Carousel Red Firebirds. It will take a three response boxes to get it all in. But the Firebird 350HO engineering/Press/Royal Race car became the Ram Air V Leader Royal Automotive engieneering/press/test car.

Note that while the , 350HO and 400, are different cars they both used the same PMD license plate for the press, GM-5172.

The third article is on a carousel Firebird 400 4 speed that was turned into a Royal Bobcat by Leader Automotive.

I asked Brain Ballish to sign up and help explain what he remembers from his days at Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac and Royal Automotive. No one ever expected that there would be so much interested in what was just a job to them. Brian's finger prints and name is all over these cars and magazines. John Politzer refuses to get into this.

Enjoy the articles

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is the article of the change over of the 1969 Firebird Carousel Red 350HO to a Ram Air V at George Deloreans' Leader Automotive. They took a Carousel Red 400 hood and put it on this car for the testing.

Leader's Royal Racing team became the "new" engineering garage along with Royal Automotive just as Ace Wilson's Royal Pontiac' Royal Racing team had been the off site engineering garage for so many years before. So it is fun to hear when some one talks about the Engineering Garage. There was one called the Reliablity Garage near the assembly line, another at the Milford Proving grounds, Pontiac's engineeing bulding on Joslyn, the Tech center and Pheonix Proving Grounds.

[Dr. Eric M. Schiffer]

Here is a 1969 Carousel Red Firebird 400 engineering/ press/ test car. This not the 350 HO made into a 400.

[MikeNoun]

Dr. Schiffer, thanks for posting!

If you take a look at my article on these cars, I think this will answer some questions regarding the Carousel Red engineering car, specifically page 2 and page 5.

http://www.musclecarfilms.com/1969_F...ng_Cars_1.html

I've actually written about the Joe Oldham article on the 1969 Firebird 400 before. Unfortunately, Joe's memory was a little fuzzy when he wrote his book "Musclecar Confessions". In the book, he states that car was a super rare RAIV car, but it wasn't, it was a standard Firebird 400. I traced the history of the car. Over the years, Joe wrote about this Firebird 400 in 4 different articles. It went from being a Firebird 400, to being a Ram Air III car, to being a RAIV now in his book.

The car was built as a 69 Firebird 400. Milt Schornack added a 1968 Ram Air setup, and the car was tested again. Joe later wrote an article on street racing in New York in a 1984 HPP issue, and now he said it was a Ram Air car. Then a few years ago, when his book came out, he said it was a super rare 1 of 102 produced, but it wasn't.

That Royal 350 H.O. car was really something. Stripped of all sound deadener, setup as a NHRA Class car for the dragstrip with shocks and suspension work, the whole setup was perfect. Milt relays a great story about how they towed the car to an NHRA event, and the first blast down the track, they broke the record. Dale Smith (Oldsmobile) was pretty upset, as he had traveled a great distance (like Milt did) with his W-31 factory backed team, and had a photographer on site for magazine photos to promote the W-31. Dale Smith lobbied the track owner to have the Royal Team booted from the track. Dale accused Milt of running a 400, but it wasn't, it was just a well designed, perfectly tuned 350, and they were willing to tear it down. But on the technicality that Pontiac had in fact not built enough 350 H.O.s to qualify in NHRA, the Royal team went home.