[JEC3039]

Can anyone confirm if the 14x6 KT wheel was used in the 1970 and/or 1971 model years?

A-body and F-body or just one of them?

Thanks.

[Kenth]

Rally II code KT #485456 14x6 was used on 1972 A-body exc. GT/GTO.

[JEC3039]

Kenth - that's what I'm struggling with. My research agrees with yours, that the KT was first used in 1972 model year. I have a set and the Motor Wheel manufacturing date code is Nov 5, 1970. Not a guess on my part, the production stamping is perfectly clear. Assuming the 1972 model year started in the fall of 1971, it's hard to believe the wheels would have started production a year ahead of time. Maybe the KT was intended for an earlier release and so Motor Wheel got started with production but then the wheel was delayed until '72 model year. That's a stretch, but that's all I can assume occurred.

Still wondering if anyone has observed this wheel on '70 or '71 model year cars.

['ol Pinion head]

What you have with the Motor Wheel produced 14x6 Rally II, with an 11/5/70 date code, is a error where the K character was misstamped as well as the T was left in the die. There are other examples where MotorWheel employees screwed up on codes. This makes total sense as MotorWheel Rally II production was shutdown from fairly early Sept of 1970, til early Nov of 1970 due to the UAW strike on GM.

By historical study, this dated 14x6 Rally II wheel should be one of the very first KU coded Rally II wheels. Have personally had in my hands a KU that was dated 11/6/70. That is still the earliest KU coded 14x6 Rally II I ever examined & I began noting their use while compiling the GT-37 Survey in the mid 80's. That also corresponds with when I first began pulling JT & KU coded 14x6's, as well as JA & JL's in boneyards. Not only did mid to late '71 production Pontiac A-body's use the KU, but they were also installed on Pontiac Venturas up into the '72 model year.

Normal production stamping of KT coded 14x6 Rally II's began for the '72 model year & continued through the '72 model year. Nearly all of the nice KT coded wheel cores I've had either came in on '72 LeMans partscars in the 90's, or were bought really cheap through wholesalers in the 90's & early 00's.. At one time I had a source make replica JW/KR 15x7's, & the medium depth center notched KT coded 14x6's made great donors for their 14" centers.

[JEC3039]

OPH - thanks for the input. Hadn't considered an error being made on the part of the MW employees, but coincidentally I'm a 24-year veteran of Kelsey-Hayes (1970-1994) and our line setters occasionally got the stamping inserts installed incorrectly, too.

To put this to bed, would you happen to know the offset of the real KU wheels? My set of "KT" wheels measure positive 7/8" (at KH we called that inset, since the west coast aftermarket guys at that time used "positive" and "negative" backwards as compared to the OE standards of Detroit, so discussions involving "offset" often got very confusing - referring to it as inset and outset was pretty clear).

Thanks -
JEC

[dv657172]

MY 71 GTO (Feb 71 production) came from the factory with 14x6 wheels. It currently has incorrect JC coded ones but as mentioned I think it should have JT or KU coded wheels

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

What you have with the Motor Wheel produced 14x6 Rally II, with an 11/5/70 date code, is a error ...

That is super cool - not the screw up persay, but the way you laid it all out to explain it;
Thanks for sharing this!!

[Kenth]

Originally Posted by dv657172

MY 71 GTO (Feb 71 production) came from the factory with 14x6 wheels. It currently has incorrect JC coded ones but as mentioned I think it should have JT or KU coded wheels

1970 (late)-1971 A-body STD 14x6 is JT.

1971-73 X-body and 1973 A-body STD 14x6 is KU.

[unruhjonny]

Originally Posted by dv657172

MY 71 GTO (Feb 71 production) came from the factory with 14x6 wheels. It currently has incorrect JC coded ones but as mentioned I think it should have JT or KU coded wheels

incase it needs to be added, here is what I have recorded from my research on wheels:

JC = 1967 – 1968 drum brake (A-body)**; 1967 Firebird w/disc brakes; 1968 all Firebirds; 4” backspacing

[dv657172]

Thanks Kenth for that clarification. And just to be clear I am referring to Rallye II wheels, not sure if your STD means standard wheel or standard on the GTO

[Held for Ransom]

Originally Posted by 'ol Pinion head

What you have with the Motor Wheel produced 14x6 Rally II, with an 11/5/70 date code, is a error where the K character was misstamped as well as the T was left in the die.

When I look at the wheels, it looks like the two letter code is on one stamp, together (circled witness marks).

[Kenth]

Originally Posted by dv657172

Thanks Kenth for that clarification. And just to be clear I am referring to Rallye II wheels, not sure if your STD means standard wheel or standard on the GTO

I meant more like 14x6 as STD size, as there was a 15x7 optional size Rally II for 1971-74 GTO´s.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by Held for Ransom

When I look at the wheels, it looks like the two letter code is on one stamp, together (circled witness marks).

Would agree, but the T type should have been removed along with the J, & then K & U type pieces should not have been loaded in the fixture that was used to stamp the ID code. That is 100% consistent with what was released for the "new" dual use application '71 14x6 Rally II wheel.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by JEC3039

OPH - thanks for the input. Hadn't considered an error being made on the part of the MW employees, but coincidentally I'm a 24-year veteran of Kelsey-Hayes (1970-1994) and our line setters occasionally got the stamping inserts installed incorrectly, too.

To put this to bed, would you happen to know the offset of the real KU wheels? My set of "KT" wheels measure positive 7/8" (at KH we called that inset, since the west coast aftermarket guys at that time used "positive" and "negative" backwards as compared to the OE standards of Detroit, so discussions involving "offset" often got very confusing - referring to it as inset and outset was pretty clear).

Thanks -
JEC

JEC, Good to hear from someone who worked @ Kelsey-Hayes!! That is awesome, am betting some of K-H production was also effected by the Fall of '70 GM UAW strike.

On the 14x6 wheel back space measurements, last evening out in the shop measured a bunch of original 14x6 Pontiac wheels for backspace. There are other differences in dimension, ESP with early wheels that were only for drum usage, but measurements I made were only for what is back space.

In comparing the 14x6 KU to the '72 A-body 14x6 KT, following results...

Backspace from drum/disc mtg area to the very back edge of the wheel:

KU 4.0"

KT 4.25"

in other words, the KU's had 1/4 of an inch more positive offset, resulting track would be 1/2" wider with the KU's versus the KT's & exact same size tire.

Am going to start a topic in the '70-72 Pontiac A-body Tech section with measurements from clean examples of 14x6 Rally wheels & steel wheel used by Pontiac from '67 the late 70's. It should be somewhat revealing.

['ol Pinion head]

Originally Posted by Kenth

1970 (late)-1971 A-body STD 14x6 is JT.

1971-73 X-body and 1973 A-body STD 14x6 is KU.

Again, I would remind you Kenth that Pontiac Master Parts books & charts listed in Pontiac Service manuals often printed months before the beginning of production have considerable limitations. Quoting them versus actual hands on experience brings a LOT of errors into the mix.

The actual usage of the KU stamped 14x6 Pontiac Rally II was.

-1971 Production A-body's AND Venturas beginning typically in Dec of '70 after the supply of JT's was exhausted.
Of note, a few A-body assembly plants like Lakewood GA & Oshawa did not resume production until later in late Jan of '71. This delayed the usage of the KU rally II wheels at those plants. With the production down time during the Strike, Pontiac Engineering was still hard at work, & the combined use KU coded 14x6 Rally II was only one of quite a few revisions that made it onto later '71 Pontiacs.


As far as '72 Venturas go, I've only pulled KU coded Rally II's off a few very early production '72 Venturas. Would think I would have ran across many later dated examples if they were used much later in '72 production.

For decades I've sought out '72 Venturas when buying partscars & boneyarding for over a dozen specialty core parts. In building up 8.5 X-body rears, the '72 Nova & Ventura rearend housing is a one year mono leaf housing. As such I've pulled a TON of original wheels off '72's.

For '73 model Pontiac A-body's & X-body's, the HN coded 14x6 Rally II was introduced.
These were also used on '74 models. The 14x6 HN Rally IIs & their replacement, the HL's, have never been a Rally II wheel that I've actively sought out, but with tons of wheels coming through here, I've ended up with more than a few.