[JimFB400HO]

John,
Thanks for asking him. It must be interesting talking to someone who was there at the time they were built. Bob substantiates my suspicions on the bird glass, glove box bird, harness routing and seat belt. Since the washer nozzle also has two different parts shown for the LH '68, I still suspect some other reason.



Kurt,
My question comes from my own '68 with red custom trim interior option (554) and black belts. I am certainly not complaining because red/red is much better with the contrast. It’s more curiosity. I first noticed matching belts in the red/red ’68 of the ’68 Firebird Brochure then found that the matching color was supposed to be in the custom colored interiors. I’ve had my ’68 since ’69. The belt date codes match the car’s Jan ’68 build date. The Fischer oops that John’s friend Bob mentioned makes sense. (I’ve also somewhat suspected an inventory shortage during build.)





Edit: Here's an old shot from before I replaced the covers. Both the belts and comfortweave were original in this shot:

[The Boss]

Originally Posted by RA1John

What exactly do you want to know about the D80 tag cars?

Why did the code D80 appear on some trim tags when the spoiler was only available on the Trans Am which was not built at the Lordstown plant. Can he confirm that no Trans Ams were built there?

[Kurt S]

That's not a common combo in Camaros, but I found two that I have info on.
One is Oct with black dlx (no belt dates to confirm originality).
One is March with red dlx, original belts.

I'd suspect it was a shortage issue.
My seatbelt article is almost done and I've only seen red dlx with red interiors in the documentation. I'll see if I can't find an early 68 source just to confirm it wasn't a usage change.

[Keith Seymore]

That is very cool that you met this gentleman from Lordstown and I appreciate his input. I would like to chime in, not to steal any of his thunder, but hopefully to add some "color commentary" from my own experiences at GM assembly plants.

By way of background, I hired into the Chevrolet Flint Truck Plant in Flint, Michigan, in 1979. We were building Chevy and GMC pickups, Blazers and Suburbans on two assembly lines. I worked there as a production supervisor, but also in plant engineering and specifications, for about 8 years. After that I moved into an Engineering/Assembly liaison position and launched product in almost every truck assembly plant in North America (Pontiac, Flint, Oshawa, Fort Wayne, Janesville, Arlington, Silao, St Louis). As an engineer today, I continue to visit assembly plants related to the product I am working on (Mishawaka, in this case).

Originally Posted by RAJ7395

I figured that those critical components that had to be torqued were paint daubed as a quality control check. We do the same thing here at the big fuzzy worm.

I've seen many Camaros that have the underside dotted and wondered if there is any official reference material to show what was marked and what colors were used.
RAJ

One of the things we still do today, even above and beyond torque marks, etc, is we will mark components that have been "reworked". For example, a piece of trim that needed a hole drilled via a temporary deviation might get a "blue dot" when that work is completed and then the part returned to the warehouse or lineside for use; similarly, a radio that had to be reprogrammed might get a "green dot" when done. I don't know how anyone, forty years after the fact, would ever decipher what all the dots mean for these relatively informal changes (it's hard enough to keep straight in the thick of battle).

Originally Posted by RA1John

Per Bob...Likely due to Operator error. Not following the Assembly Work Instructions.

There is variation between operators. For two shift operations, you have not only the first shift guy and the second shift guy, but also one or two "relief" men (the guy who gives bathroom breaks while the line is running) plus the "quality man" (the supervisor's right hand man). This implies you could have as many as five or six different individuals performing the same job at some point during the day, each perhaps with his own favorite shortcuts or slightly different way of performing the work. This also assumes the relief people know the job completely and are doing the whole job properly. Also, there are repair stations at various points along the line (end of trim, end of chassis, two or three points along the final line, plus short repair lines after assembly, plus "heavy" repair stalls at the end of the line), each with two or three repairmen that have an opportunity to touch the vehicle. Lots of opportunities for variation here and routings of hoses and wires are particularly vulnerable. And all of this assumes they WANT to do the job correctly (see fastener story below).

Originally Posted by RA1John

Per Bob...Same explanation as 'Bird' glass. Cost savings. Early cars had them.
Usage ended sometime after Dec.'67-Jan.'68.

Odd thing is, a bulletin has never appeared addressing these issues.

What kind of "bulletin" would you be looking for? We would not issue a "service bulletin", for example, on a cost savings initiative. There might be up front supporting documentation, in terms of an employee suggestion or some sort of "issue tracking" database (today we would call it a "Problem Resolution Tracking System", or "PRTS") which would be used to generate the official engineering change (ie "ECA" or Engineering Change Authorization, as it was called back then). But I don't think there would be any kind of notification written downstream from these internal engineering documents.

Originally Posted by RA1John

Something to consider.
With Chevy's going down the same line as the Firebirds, I would think there must have been a lot of common parts. Fasteners for sure.

Agree. In fact, we would occasionally see a truck with a "Chevy" emblem on one side and a "GMC" emblem on the other! Not as much differentiation between brands back then as we try to do today.

This is my favorite story about fasteners and the level of "control" of the assembly process: In my area, we used to make the attachments between the radiator support and the front of the fenders. It was difficult to see and difficult to access, so often those small bolts would crossthread or break the weld nuts loose and you would run a lot of repair. The bolts we were supposed to use, (part number 3846202, in fact!) were black in appearance and manufactured by a company called Ferndale Fasteners. Eventually, we discovered another bolt in the plant, made by a different manufacturer - Lang Manufacturing - that was phosphate coated (gray in color) that, either because of the coating or the thread shape, didn't crossthread as readily. After we made that discovery we used to sneak across to Line two during second shift, steal all the boxes of Lang bolts that we could find, and run them all night. At the end of the shift, we'd secure them in our lockers and go home. Day shift would run the black Ferndales all day, run a bunch of junk, and wonder how we did it.

This kind of stuff (ie, black bolt vs gray bolt) is what drives the Corvette purists nuts (...serves 'em right... ).

K

[Keith Seymore]

No further questions for the Lordstown employee?



On a related note I just found out one of the guys I work with (DaveT) started at Pontiac in 1970 as a Reliability Engineer and Industrial Engineer.

Let me know if you have any Pontiac specific questions and I will forward them to him for his input.

I'll start a separate thread as well.

K

[Eighttime]

My '67 has only one traction bar(anti-wrap, radius etc.) in the rear. The bar(s) I'm talking about are mounted to the axle housing and then mount to the bottom of the floor pan. I have brackets for two on the housing but not on the floor. I'm having trouble locating the drivers side so I can run two. Are there supposed to be two bars? Thanks!

[AGTORG]

the auto cars only got one and the manual cars got the two i beleive! but on the 67 like mine the axles came with both brakets on them, that is why its hard to find the drivers side components.

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by The Boss

Why did the code D80 appear on some trim tags when the spoiler was only available on the Trans Am which was not built at the Lordstown plant. Can he confirm that no Trans Ams were built there?

Kurt S?
You asked some friends about other LOR products (full-size Chevys) and they have found 3 other tags with RPO codes on them.
All 3 were stamped Z21, one convertible, 2 coupes. 10D, 03C, and 06C/D.
The Z21 was stamped in the same position as the D80/B80 on this Firebird tag that has been discussed.

Interesting that it that one of the cars was way back in Oct. I'm surprised it's so infrequent; Z21 (exterior style trim) shouldn't be that rare of an option. So maybe not all tags were stamped.

ANY MORE INFO KURT S?
Or The Former Lordstown Employee?

[Kurt S]

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

Kurt S?
You asked some friends about other LOR products (full-size Chevys) and they have found 3 other tags with RPO codes on them.
All 3 were stamped Z21, one convertible, 2 coupes. 10D, 03C, and 06C/D.
The Z21 was stamped in the same position as the D80/B80 on this Firebird tag that has been discussed.

Interesting that it that one of the cars was way back in Oct. I'm surprised it's so infrequent; Z21 (exterior style trim) shouldn't be that rare of an option. So maybe not all tags were stamped.

ANY MORE INFO KURT S?
Or The Former Lordstown Employee?

I'm still surprised on the 10D car.

The only new data is the 03B Firebird that is stamped B80 on the tag. It was on ebay and was discussed in the forum a while back.

[sts]

Ask him about D-80 cars. I worked with a tech who was a Pontiac tech, working on fgfs when they first rolled off of the line. According to him, a D80 car didn't mean that it as a t/a. I don't see what reason he had for lying; after all, we had this discussion over 20 years ago, back when it wasn't cool to own such a pos car. Even so, you have all these 30 year old experts--here and other places--who know everyting there is to know about firebirds and they forbid anyone to discuss such issues.

[jamesgennock]

My father started at Lordstown assembly plant as one of the first employees as well and retired a computer guy from the same plant under EDS. Very interesting what really happened back then. He has shed alot of light on assembly etc. Nice post.

[johnta1]

jamesgennock, can you get him to relate some ingo or post here?

The more info on the process the better I think.

[1969T/A]

Any More Info On 1969 Firebird "LOR Coded Tags" ?
I'm Willing To Pay $15.00+ A Magazine Each
For The April '78, Aug '78, & Sept '79 Issue's Of Hot Rod Magazine!

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

Any More Info On 1969 Firebird "LOR Coded Tags" ?
I'm Willing To Pay $15.00+ A Magazine Each
For The April '78, Aug '78, & Sept '79 Issue's Of Hot Rod Magazine!

Are those the issues with the ta conv. search info ?

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli

Are those the issues with the ta conv. search info ?

I believe they are the issues with the 1969 ta convertible search info.
I just bought the Aug '78 & Sept '79 today.
Now, I just need the April '78.

[Cammer-6]

Humm have those stored in plastic tubs in the garage loft.
Will have to dig them out.
If my failing memory serves me right this topic started with someone
writing in to the editors in the mail bag or mail room section,correct?

[Tellyshavilli]

Originally Posted by 1969T/A

I believe they are the issues with the 1969 ta convertible search info.
I just bought the Aug '78 & Sept '79 today.
Now, I just need the April '78.

Yes , I had those magazines at one time but not any more .I actually bought one of the ta conv. by tracking those guys down from those letter to the editor write ins about who owns the 69 ta conv. At the time Hot Rod had posted that there were only 5 ta conv. built but soon after it was discovered that there were 8 . I also found one (69 ta conv) in a H O newsletter in 1977 and soon parked that one in my garage .

[1969T/A]

Originally Posted by Tellyshavilli

I also found one (69 ta conv) in a H O newsletter in 1977 and soon parked that one in my garage .

Do you still have it?
Any pics of it you can post?

[Tellyshavilli]

No , I don't . The one I found in H-O's newsletter was a automatic and it was in New Orleans (1977) . I purchased it a couple years later . It is now in R.L. collection .
Also in the Hot Rod mag. letter to editor section was the White on white 4 speed that was in Pittsburgh and is now in Las Vegas I heard. That car changed hands many times . I recall 4-5 cars being reported being found in that time period in Hot Rod .

[gregsgtos2]

no,he doesnt still have it.he raped and pillaged and moved on.