[jcruz]

Hi all,

My 69 hasn't been on the road for about 2 years now. It's on stands now and the motor will need help before it's street-able again.

I'm just starting to put plans together and I won't be doing anything soon -- probably not until next year.

One option I'm considering is the possibility of dropping in a crate motor. The appeal is that I'm hoping it would be easier and less expensive than rebuilding what I have or finding another Pontiac motor (that might need to be rebuilt).

I'm looking for opinions and any experience people have installing a crate motor into a 69. What motor did you use? Conversion issues? Are there crate motors out there that will bolt up to a TH400?

Thanks,

John

[ponyakr]

Here are the cheapest decent Pontiac crate engines I've seen advertised.

http://lenwilliamsautomachine.com/Home.html

But, I've been criticized for recommending this builder, since I've never bought a engine from him. And, some say he must be cutting corners, in order to sell that cheap. So, I'm not recommending this builder--just providing the link.

If you can spend closer to $10k for an engine, there are LOTS of good Pontiac engine builders. Some post on this site.

Not aware of any builders in Florida, unless P dude is building them again. Anybody know ?

https://www.facebook.com/kensautomachineshop/?ref=br_rs

https://sites.google.com/site/kensautomachineshop/

[thews]

Haters will hate me for saying this, but if you can get a new Chevy crate engine for $5K less than a rebuilt Pontiac engine, I think it's a good idea. These cars need to be on the road, regardless of what's under the hood. You can search Craigslist for an unknown, but it would be hard to trust. Then one has to ask themselves where they draw the line... would you rather have an LS3, or a rebuilt Pontiac. I realize the LS3 will cost you plenty, but I have one in my 2010 Camaro SS and it's one hell of a nice engine.

[ponyakr]

Yeah, old style sbc crate engines are dirt cheap. And, used sbc parts are REAL cheap.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/n...xgQaAoSk8P8HAQ

But, a Chevy engine in a '69 Bird just ain't right. IMO

[rexs73gto]

A lot of people say go with the chebby engine in your car but what you don't hear is the cost of all the other parts to install one of those ls engine in the car. You have to spend a bunch on the computer, the wiring , the new mounts, & then have it programed to work in your car. By the time you spend all the EXTRA money you can get a nice Pontiac engine in your Pontiac which is the correct engine in ANY Pontiac. If your going to put an engine that doesn't belong in your car why not go for a Ford engine they have cheap create engines to. Same amount of work & extra cost to put that in.

[RocktimusPryme]

Dont go sideways, if you want to step forward into the 21st century with an LS, okay I get it. But dont go through an engine swap for a different 50 year old technology.

Tilden Motorsports is a good look with LS swaps. They give you a chopped down wiring harness for use in classic swaps.

Aside from that I would just stick to a local builder and avoid shipping.

[jcruz]

Originally Posted by rexs73gto

A lot of people say go with the chebby engine in your car but what you don't hear is the cost of all the other parts to install one of those ls engine in the car. You have to spend a bunch on the computer, the wiring , the new mounts, & then have it programed to work in your car. By the time you spend all the EXTRA money you can get a nice Pontiac engine in your Pontiac which is the correct engine in ANY Pontiac. If your going to put an engine that doesn't belong in your car why not go for a Ford engine they have cheap create engines to. Same amount of work & extra cost to put that in.

Right, this is my main concern going with a modern LS engine -- all the things that have to be done to have it work in my car, with a big price tag.

[jcruz]

Originally Posted by ponyakr

Yeah, old style sbc crate engines are dirt cheap. And, used sbc parts are REAL cheap.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/n...xgQaAoSk8P8HAQ

But, a Chevy engine in a '69 Bird just ain't right. IMO

Thanks, going to look into this angle more.

I currently have a '74 455 that was built for drag racing. Of course, I didn't do much drag racing, then the motor developed problems, now it sits.

I would prefer to keep it all Pontiac, but my main priority is to get the car back on the road and enjoy the drives.

[Squidward]

That's why I have a stable of 69 350's as motor spares in case I mess up the "permanent" motors in my cars. Then I can patch together another motor to keep the car in running shape.

If you are only looking for a temporary stop-gap, Craigslist could net you a solid running motor for cheap while you fix your good one. Just a thought.

[jcruz]

Originally Posted by Squidward

That's why I have a stable of 69 350's as motor spares in case I mess up the "permanent" motors in my cars. Then I can patch together another motor to keep the car in running shape.

If you are only looking for a temporary stop-gap, Craigslist could net you a solid running motor for cheap while you fix your good one. Just a thought.

Not a bad idea -- I'll keep my eyes peeled!

[Lee]

Originally Posted by Squidward

That's why I have a stable of 69 350's as motor spares in case I mess up the "permanent" motors in my cars. Then I can patch together another motor to keep the car in running shape.

If you are only looking for a temporary stop-gap, Craigslist could net you a solid running motor for cheap while you fix your good one. Just a thought.

LOL, I sent him a PM with a very similar suggestion!

[JLMounce]

I definitely agree that swapping to an early generation sbc is generally a poor idea. Although it's not anywhere near the pain of an LS swap, there's still extras you'll need to consider that will cost money and eat in to what you'd spend on your Pontiac engine.

Be incredibly weary of people that says things like "just LS swap it." There is more to this swap than people let on. There's a decent amount of fabrication work needed and the parts to bring it all together (outside of the engine) start to add up quickly.

If you're a master fabricator, have the tools and the space needed, yeah you can go get a junk yard 5.3 and make the swap happen fairly cheaply. My guess though is that many people want a new or newly rebuilt engine they can trust with quality parts they can also trust. In that situation, if you have a Pontiac already in hand, the money is basically a wash, but the Pontiac you won't have to deal with the swap as your car was designed for it in the first place.

If you've got a long block that just needs freshening up, you'll be money ahead if you've got competent machinists in your area.

[thews]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

I definitely agree that swapping to an early generation sbc is generally a poor idea. Although it's not anywhere near the pain of an LS swap, there's still extras you'll need to consider that will cost money and eat in to what you'd spend on your Pontiac engine.

Be incredibly weary of people that says things like "just LS swap it." There is more to this swap than people let on. There's a decent amount of fabrication work needed and the parts to bring it all together (outside of the engine) start to add up quickly.

If you're a master fabricator, have the tools and the space needed, yeah you can go get a junk yard 5.3 and make the swap happen fairly cheaply. My guess though is that many people want a new or newly rebuilt engine they can trust with quality parts they can also trust. In that situation, if you have a Pontiac already in hand, the money is basically a wash, but the Pontiac you won't have to deal with the swap as your car was designed for it in the first place.

If you've got a long block that just needs freshening up, you'll be money ahead if you've got competent machinists in your area.

I agree with you for the most part, in the LS engine being difficult. The only way I'd try it is to buy a crashed SS Camaro.

The one scenario I disagree is a crate Chevy engine. That swap is simple and everything you buy for a Chevy is half the cost of a BOP part. The time and effort from start to finish on the crate engine route is far less than getting a Pontiac engine rebuilt or installing an LS3. For those that have never driven a car with an LS3 in it, the SS Camaro is way faster than any Pontiac I've ever owned. The power band from 5K to 6K pulls like a beast when it's a 6 speed car.

Regarding the Pontiac rebuild, you can still find 400 blocks on Craigslist. I had my short block rebuilt 10 years ago. I found a 68 Catalina short block complete. I dropped it off, gave him $2500 and picked up the rebuilt block with a new cam and pistons. I chose a cam that keeps the valves open just a bit longer, which makes it run fine on Premium gas. The heads I got off eBay for about $1200. They are #62's that someone dropped off at a Machine shop and never picked them up. They did all the right stuff in the fresh rebuild with all new valves and they weren't ported. It runs great and probably cost me $5K back then.

A last option would be an LS1 out of a 90's Trans AM. How hard would that swap be?

[JLMounce]

Doesn't really matter what type of LS engine you do whether it's a new LSX crate engine or an LS1 out of a wrecked 4th gen. Things to consider with that swap...

Engine cradle clearence
Motor Mounts
Transmission mount
Wiring/ECU or carb based intake + carburetor
Fuel system

No LS1 has provision for a mechanical pump, so regardless of whether you are running the LS1 with it's MPFI and ECU or going the carb route, you still need to build a compatible fuel system.

The LS1 platform is potent with a carb as you'd expect, but I'm of the opinion that if you're going to do that swap, you might as well do it to where you get the most from it. That means using the factory or aftermarket ECU so you can run fuel injection. Most LS1's except for very early stuff is drive by wire, so you'll either need to adapt a pedal assembly for this, or switch to a cable based throttle body and aftermarket TPS.

LS1's don't really have provisions for a water pump mounted cooling fan so that also means installing an electric fan.

The transmission will have it's own hurtles depending on if you're using a modern transmission or trying to adapt something you already have. Especially if it's BOP. I've owned 3 LS engined cars and they are great engines, but the swap into a first gen firebird is not for the faint of heart.

I do agree the old school SBC is definitely much easier as you typically just need motor mounts and possibly a transmission adapter if you're using a BOP transmission. I just don't see the value in going to the trouble for what amounts to very little advantage (if any) other than cost. Even then however, if you already have a pontiac engine in hand, rebuilding it vs a traditional SBC isn't going to be overwhelmingly different. If you don't have an engine in hand, then I agree the cost is a factor.

[thews]

Originally Posted by JLMounce

Doesn't really matter what type of LS engine you do whether it's a new LSX crate engine or an LS1 out of a wrecked 4th gen. Things to consider with that swap...

Engine cradle clearence
Motor Mounts
Transmission mount
Wiring/ECU or carb based intake + carburetor
Fuel system

No LS1 has provision for a mechanical pump, so regardless of whether you are running the LS1 with it's MPFI and ECU or going the carb route, you still need to build a compatible fuel system.

The LS1 platform is potent with a carb as you'd expect, but I'm of the opinion that if you're going to do that swap, you might as well do it to where you get the most from it. That means using the factory or aftermarket ECU so you can run fuel injection. Most LS1's except for very early stuff is drive by wire, so you'll either need to adapt a pedal assembly for this, or switch to a cable based throttle body and aftermarket TPS.

LS1's don't really have provisions for a water pump mounted cooling fan so that also means installing an electric fan.

The transmission will have it's own hurtles depending on if you're using a modern transmission or trying to adapt something you already have. Especially if it's BOP. I've owned 3 LS engined cars and they are great engines, but the swap into a first gen firebird is not for the faint of heart.

I do agree the old school SBC is definitely much easier as you typically just need motor mounts and possibly a transmission adapter if you're using a BOP transmission. I just don't see the value in going to the trouble for what amounts to very little advantage (if any) other than cost. Even then however, if you already have a pontiac engine in hand, rebuilding it vs a traditional SBC isn't going to be overwhelmingly different. If you don't have an engine in hand, then I agree the cost is a factor.

Good info here. One thing to note is info can be had on the web when doing these swaps. If one could find a 2010 crashed Camaro SS with an lS3 for under $10K, that would be a monster with the 6 speed in a first Gen.