[TransAm525]

About two years ago, I bought a 1978 Special Edition Trans Am from a seller in New Mexico. The car had all the correct Special Edition Trans Am parts (emblems, interior color, wheels, gold t-tops, etc.), fresh paint, rebuilt Pontiac 400 engine, rebuilt/swapped TH400 transmission, new upholstery, new headliner, new carpet, new tires, and many other new parts. Before I bought the car, I decoded the VIN, and nothing seemed out of the norm (the car was exactly as the VIN stated). The engine stamp even matched the VIN. When I brought the car home to finish the restoration, I noticed the following:

-Engine block code was for a L-78 base engine but heads were 6X-4 W-72 heads (should have been 6X-8)
-Engine valve covers were painted steel instead of W-72 chrome plated
-Left front fender was originally white
-Left bullet mirror was originally white
-Front fascia was from a blue 77 or 78 Firebird
-Cowl tag indicated car was white with a carmine red interior
-Under dash, inside doors, etc. had lots of New Mexico dirt (indicating either the t-tops were off everywhere it was driven or the car sat open to the elements for a long time at some point)

At first, I thought nothing of the above items, other than the engine was either pieced together from other Pontiac 400 parts or the factory used stock L-78 stamped blocks on some W-72 engines and the original valve covers were replaced at some point. I also thought nothing of the different color fender paint (under the solar gold paint) other than it was probable in a front-end collision and they were repair parts.

Fast forward to a year later, I removed the dash for replacement (badly cracked) and noticed the VIN tag was held in with screws. I started to become suspicious, but the engine matched the VIN and the car matched the VIN description.

Fast forward to two weeks ago, I sent the VIN to Pontiac Historical Services for a copy of the original invoice. What came back was shocking.

Today, the PHS documents arrived. According to the PHS, the car was originally a 1978 L-78 equipped Trans Am, with white paint, a carmine red cloth interior, with steel wheels, and certain options my car doesn’t have (not even traces of them being removed)—not a Special Edition car.

Here is the dilemma:

-The body is indeed a Special Edition 1978 body. I’ve had nearly every part of this car apart, and the original Solar Gold paint is everywhere, with only the exterior showing signs of a repaint. Even the gold emblems and had no signs of every being removed or replaced.
-The front clip is obviously from the former white 1978 Trans Am, right down to its matching engine.
-The build sheet from the top of the gas tank matches the body options (only can read half the sheet), but does not match the PHS invoice options

Obviously this raises some serious legal and authenticity issues. I still have seller’s contact information, but am waiting to call him after I receive some input from this post. I have half of a Special Edition Trans Am and half of another car (including its VIN) that was probably crushed years ago. My thoughts are the original white car was involved in a collision (possibly rear-end or rollover) and was totaled. The owner had another body but missing the drivetrain and maybe even had a damaged front clip and simply pieced the two cars together to make one. Here are a few questions I need answers to:

-Where can I find the VIN for the body of the car?
-Is the car the white 1978 the VIN states, or the Special Edition 1978 the body states?
-What do I do with the VIN?
-What legal issues arise with the previous owner (pending he was part of the conversion)?

The car is nearly finished with a full frame-on restoration, and looks awesome, but after this I don’t even feel like touching the car anymore (angry and disappointed).

[Geeto 67]

The short version Get a Lawyer. Even then this can only end badly.


The longish version. Sounds like someone took two wrecked cars (one possibly stolen) and built one. My question is "So what"? Did you buy the car to drive and enjoy or to rebuild, flip and sell at a profit?

If the later is the case you didn't do your homework and you got screwed lesson learned. Always get the PHS before you buy. You probably made it worse by posting it here because now everybody knows your car is fishy.

If the former scenario is the case drive the damn thing. Have some fun. Stop worring about it. It's a TA either way so it will always be worth something, pile the wife and kids in the car and take them out for a spin, let them know what they will be missing when gas goes to $5 a gallon.

[vidguy]

I agree with Geeto 67. Well said..
You have those 2 ways to look at it.

As to the VIN... I'm no expert and this has been discussed lots... but..
What VIN is on the Title? That is what you have as far as the Government is concerned.. You can probobly leave it at that..

Consider your intentions for the car.
I would contact the seller just to get the facts and see what transpires from there..
A lot depends on what you paid for the car, doesn't it? Did you Pay TOP DOLLAR?

Heck, if it bums you out that much, and the long possibly costly legal options are not what you are anxious to face, Put the car up for sale exactly as it is telling all. I for one would own and drive a CLONE like this one gladly, as long as I knew what it was up front..

[Speargun]

Your car should have several "concealed" VIN's. I don't know exactly where they are located on your car, but a good place to look is the backside of the bumper, inside fenders, under the dash....
Your local law enforcement agency may have a list of where to look, you'll have to check with whoever does stolen cars. Or, you might find the info on the internet.

Good luck!

[kaysersuzuki]

but what if it is a stolen car,you loose everything,how much risk are you willing to take,the correct rivets can be bought now if you look and you can rivet it back into place,if you put the rivets in and enjoy the car,you own it,but i would definitly keep the previous owners info so you have back ur ass up you can,if you bought it as an investment and paid top dollor,you got screwed and lesson learned,if you bought it to enjoy than keep on enjoying it,i know everything i own now will be passed on to the kids and kept in the family,

[74t/a]

The quickest location I know of to verify the VIN is to remove the heater motor and look in there. It will be stamped 2 places under the heater box, but under the motor is the 1st place I would look. It will be stamped into the firewall, so unless it has been ground off, or sheetmetal replacement, it will be there.

[TransAm525]

A few days ago, I was removing the gas tank for replacement and found the original build sheet, which only 2/3 was left. I did some cleaning of the sheet and found the VIN for the body at the bottom. Sure enough, the builds are about 5000 cars apart. I never plan on selling the car, but it does make me angry knowing my car wears the VIN from a car that merely donated the left fender, facia, mirror, shaker, and engine. I started thinking back to when I bought the car, and the previous owner said he had bought and sold many Trans Ams over the years. The trunk also came full with many spare parts, included was a set of black t-tops (for non-SE cars). The VIN the car is wearing originally had t-tops. He was also the one who had the car repainted. I'm starting to wonder if the spare parts, and the parts on my front clip (including the VIN) are from one of his old Trans Ams, possibly a white one. I'm going to call the previous owner today and see what he knows about the whole thing. I doubt he will admit much, if anything, but at least I will be satisfied knowing I atleast asked the questions.

[Geeto 67]

Seriously I really think you should sit down with a lawyer and pay him for his time and advice.

If anything you should get out of your conversation with the previous owner it should be that SE TA was not stolen, and that if at all possible have him write you a letter to that effect. Now that you know the vins are swapped, and you now know the second vin number, and suspect the car might be stolen you may have some legal obligations, which is why I say talk to a lawyer.

See if the previous owner has any of the old SE parts laying around, espically the vin tag. He may have just used the other TA's tag because he lost the title. If he still has it around then get it and correct your situation. If he gives you the letter then great, you can at least say you did not buy a stolen car knowingly.

If the guy who sold you an SE trans am and advertised it as such, there may be a fraud element, so talk to an attorney.

This board is not for legal advice - when you think your hobby may put you on the wrong side of the law, get an attorney and figure out what your options are.

Or you can not worry about it, drive the car as it was intended, and the next time you go to buy one pull the PHS report beforehand.

[TransAm525]

The previous owner had no clue it was an SE car. When I met with him before buying the car, I asked if it was an SE car (after seeing it had all the SE parts), and he said he didn't know. One advantage of being in the Air Force is I have unlimited and free access to a lawyer. I'll see what the previous owner has to say and see if he can provide a letter of some sort. I'll also have a friend run the body VIN to check for a stolen history and talk to a lawyer at the same time. Like I said, I didn't buy the car for an investment, or even because it was an SE car, but because I wanted a later 2nd gen. Trans Am, which it is.

[Speargun]

A lot of times, depending on state laws, if a vehicle is entered into the state & national database as stolen, it gets kicked out after several years. Even if it comes up clean, you might want to have a detailed search done.... that is if you do a search at all.

[TransAm525]

I talked to the previous owner today. Here is the story:

-He's owned many Trans Ams over the years, including a white, black, and the gold one I now have. He stripped the body of the white car (including the engine) and swapped them onto the body of my car. The body of the original white car was crushed.

-The body of my car came from a friend of his in the construction business. He said the car sat in a construction business yard for years, and he bought it. The side had been hit (towards the front) so he swapped the engine, fender, and door from the white car to mine. He then sent the car to a friend for body work and paint. At first he kept insisting my car has the white body, and he had swapped the gas tank from another car, but there are no traces of white paint anywhere on the body, just solar gold paint. He said he gave me all the parts he had, and said he had no clue about the VIN tag being held in with screws. The previous owner’s work on the car was marginal at best, and I can tell what he has and hasn't touched. Very little of the car has been touched from the firewall back, but everything forward has been touched.

-I asked about the engine, and he said it came from the white Trans Am. I then asked why its VIN was on my car, and he said it wasn't. I then told him the VIN on the engine matched the VIN tag on the car, and he seemed surprised.

To me, the story of the car being pieced together is no longer a mystery, but I would like to know when and why the VIN was swapped. My guess is the body, when sitting at the construction business for years, had no title and this was an easy way around all the paperwork to acquire a new title.

[pontiac poncho]

What part of New Mexico did you buy this from. I just sold a SE to a guy in Alberquerue spelling??? about 2 years ago.

[Matt Danger]

What's obnoxious is that in all probability he was the one who switched the vin numbers but doesn't want to own up to it.

Did he say what was wrong with the white car that made him strip all the parts from it?

[TransAm525]

Pontiac Poncho: I bought the car in Albuquerque, NM from a guy named Mark Marquez. Do you have any papers with the original VIN? If so, shoot me an e-mail and I'll let you know what the body VIN is. There might be a match.

Matt Danger: He said the white car was wrecked, but had a newly rebuilt engine and a perfect front clip. The rest of the car was crushed after he swapped the parts over to my car.

[ScottN]

Originally Posted by kaysersuzuki

the correct rivets can be bought now if you look and you can rivet it back into place

Exactly where can you buy VIN tag rivets? I know trim tag rivets are available but I've never heard of the correct VIN rivets being made available.
Tampering with a VIN is illegal no matter how you slice it.

[68MeanVerdoroGreen]

Where else!

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-RI...83526996QQrdZ1

[PonchoV8]

Tampering with the VIN isn't illegal. It is only illegal to tamper with them with intent to defraud. That could be a subjective thing to the authorities, but it is allowable to remove and restore and replace. High volume body shops might do it monthly. For instance if your car gets smashed right at the VIN area, they might get a partial cut to replace that and r/i the VIN plate.

VIN rivots are available thru dealerships. Not anybody should be able to get them.