Pontiac - Boost Turbo, supercharged, Nitrous, EFI & other Power Adders discussed here.

          
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  #41  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:40 AM
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The most difficult part of Supercharging/Turbocharging an engine is to select the right device for the application.

Each device has a long list of pros and cons. It is the task of the person(s) involved in the installation to balance the various compromises with the actual needs of the engine in order to meet the targets for that given application.

The first step is to determine the needs for the given application being evaluated.

This requires that the performance characteristics (HP and Torque curves) for the base Naturally Aspirated engine to be compared to the performance targets for the boosted engine (HP and Torque curves, Airflow, and Pressure Ratio requirements.

This will identify the areas in which Boosting will be required and what level of Boost is needed. From this analysis, the type of boosting device can be determined.
This is assuming that you are after the best unit for the application and not trying to emulate a specific boosted engine from a different time period. An example would be installing a 1960s Paxton Supercharger on your favorite 1960s Ford Collector Car.

Sometimes there are several Boosting Strategies that can accomplish the same task.

When this occurs, then other factors (cost, complexity, reliability, packaging, etc) must be considered in order to make the best choice.

Major Factors that can influence the decision:

If the engine need performance enhancement across all RPM points then the Roots or the Lysholm Supercharger might be the best choice if the given HP target is within the range of the device.

If the engine need performance enhancement at High RPM only, the Turbocharger or the Centrifugal Supercharger might be the best choice if the given HP target is within the range of the device.

If the engine Pressure Ratio requirements are 1.8 or lower, then the Roots Supercharger would be preferred over the Lysholm Supercharger.

If the engine Pressure Ratio requirements are 2.0 or higher, then the Roots Supercharger is beyond its capability and should not be considered. 2.0 Pressure
Ratio is 15 psi of boost pressure. A Lysholm Supercharger is more efficient in the above 2.0 Pressure Ratio range.

Higher Pressure Ratios raise the air charge temperature and can require intercooling or an alternate fuel like methanol or a form of water injection to cool the air charge.

Low Boost 5-7 psi or 1.5 Pressure Ratio can get by without intercooling.

Note, the above are general considerations and are not always correct for every application. A engine with E-85 fuel, a lower compression ratio, fuel injection, and intercooling may work well at 35 psi of boost. It depends.

Once this work is done then the next step is looking at the Turbocharger/ Supercharger "Maps" and determining the Airflow and Pressure Ratio requirements.

There are TWO MAJOR TYPES of MAPS: Compressor Maps and Turbine Maps.

Compressor Maps are used for both types of Boosting Devices and Turbine Maps ( far right map) are used only for Turbochargers.

Tom V

Do a search on Compressor Maps and also images of compressor maps and you will see a lot of examples.

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  #42  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:43 AM
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Post by B-Man

Both Tom and George have been asked not to engage one another.

No way am I going to sift through this thread and edit it.

I REDID IT FOR THE FORUM BART. NO WORRIES.

I have the ability to delete individual posts and I can edit post content but I won’t.

Start a new thread, I’ll delete this one.

If I see the same thing happening again there will be suspensions I guarantee it.

ASSIGNMENT IS FINISHED BART, I WILL CONTINUE POSTING ON THIS THREAD
Hopefully it will also be made a sticky. Please delete the other thread asap.

Tom V

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  #43  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:25 PM
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Now that we have some of the Thread restored, I will post a couple of images of Compressor Maps. Fortunately I still had these images on my desktop.

The first image shows a Compressor Map with the Pressure Ration Scale on the left, the Lbs per min of Air Flow on the bottom and the Efficiency Islands across the center of the image. The wheel speed lines are at the right and the Surge Line is on the left Border of the Map. In many maps, there is also posted, the efficiency of each island point near the island.

In the second picture we have the Turbine Points mapped for a given example.

The third Picture shows the typical air flow and exhaust flow routing for a Turbo System.

The last Image shows the typical Roots compressor map. As you look at the map you will notice that the plots and islands
are not very smooth. That is a characteristic of Roots style Superchargers. No Worries, just the way it works.

Tom V.

Time for Lunch.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-07-2019 at 01:34 PM.
  #44  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:31 PM
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Lots of hardcore data presented here. I'm glad it got edited and restored for everyone's benefit.

Eric

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  #45  
Old 06-07-2019, 02:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elarson View Post
Lots of hardcore data presented here. I'm glad it got edited and restored for everyone's benefit.

Eric
Absolutely !

Thank you Tom !

Thank you Bart !


Frank

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  #46  
Old 06-07-2019, 05:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Vaught View Post
Post by 69GTO

Here’s a file on Marty.. printed some 20 years ago

https://forums.maxperformanceinc.com...0&d=1559863609

Tom V.

Here we go.. Please click on it for a larger one and zoom in


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  #47  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:04 PM
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69 GTO, that info brings back a lot of memories.

The first year the car was built, Jeff Covey, the chassis builder, drove the car and helped Marty get it sorted out. (1996 time frame)

In the mean time, Marty went to Roy Hills Driving School and was certified to drive the car. I believe out of a large class of signed up drivers, Marty and onlt a couple of other ones, passed the class on the first time out. It was a week long class (driving Roy's low seven second company race cars).

Obviously Jeff Covey's Chassis was a pretty good Double Tube design.
With some Mods it seems to still work well as Chief's Chassis on TV.
Marty told me the car was running 5s at Tucson's drag strip (in the night air).
Lots of videos out there with the BAE engine installed later.

Thanks for the Post 69GTO.

Tom V.

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  #48  
Old 06-07-2019, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 69GTO View Post
Here we go.. Please click on it for a larger one and zoom in
Thanks 69GTO,


Frank

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  #49  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:35 PM
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Quite a few years ago, When my company owned Jaguar, Aston Martin, and a Japanese company, we did some Boost Studies on Oil flow in an engine and flow to the connecting rods.

So we needed a Test Rig that would allow us very accurate RPM Measurements and where the Piston/Connecting rod actually was in the cylinder bore. The only way to do this was with a laser. Lasers are big pieces of equipment so how do you actually read the Piston Position on a engine where the pistons are actually moving at normal engine speeds? So I designed and built a test rig where we could do the testing.

Here are some images of the test rig, the Laser equipment, and the "Dyno" that we used to spin the engine to max rpm. a 120 HP Motor and the Dyno measurement device. Click on the picture for a larger image.

We have a 160 HP electric motor mounted on a movable test rig bench. That bench was 27K but was a work of art.
A local company built it for us along with several more of them.

Tom V.
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  #50  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:44 PM
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So in the picture in post #49 you can see that 4 cylinders on the engine are removed at the front of the block and a sealing plate installed.

You can see that the engine is turned on its side. This allowed us to drain the oil from one pair of main bearings, one set of connecting rod bearings, and two piston assemblies. The lower position (where the drivers side head would be) is set up to use a dry symp system to extract the oil after it goes thru, lubes, and cools the connecting rod pair on the crank rod journal.

The laser equipment is the angled equipment on the right of the engine
You can see the Laser "dot" on the piston in the 1st picture below.
You can see the Dyno Torque Meter used in the testing in Picture 2.
You can see a close up image of the dot on the piston in Picture 3.
All of these allowed us to very accurately document the Piston Travel in the bore on this special engine test rig
for a Jaguar program we were doing at the time. .

Tom V.
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  #51  
Old 06-07-2019, 07:52 PM
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So we have a couple of pictures left.

In the first picture you can see the engine valley, and the oil feed lines to the block to feed the main and rod bearings.

In the second picture you can see the whole engine (with the dry sump oil drain lines installed).
The aluminum plate with the slot in it allowed us to accurately measure TRUE BOTTOM DEAD CENTER OF THE CRANKSHAFT
so that we could calibrate the laser equipment. The oil feed lines are the two aeroquip steel lines in the picture.
The special oil pan on the left is designed to quickly send the oil from the rotating assembly to the scavenge lines on the
oil pan and head to the dry sump system. All of this work was for a special boosted engine.

Tom V.

This is where I learned about the tremendously quick rise in the oil temperature right at the connecting rod bearing.
Oil flow and the right clearances are extremely important in a high speed engine, as many know. But they do not
know why. So this engine was a Boosted Engine Oil Temp/Bearing Flow Measurement Rig (device) and I showed you
a method of how we used it..
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-07-2019 at 08:09 PM.
  #52  
Old 06-08-2019, 08:39 AM
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In post 43 we talked a little bit about the compressor map.
I posted a Generic Centrifugal Compressor Map there.

Some of the info might have gotten lost in the redo.

So Now I am going to post a Actual Vortech "S-Trim" map and go thru the numbers there.

Click on the map and you can easily read the numbers on the map.

So on the left side of the map we have the Pressure Ratio (again) & (again) & (again) BECAUSE ALL OF THE BOOST GUYS AGREED ON THAT LOCATION FOR PRESSURE RATIO.

The Pressure Ratio Scale goes from a 1.0 Pressure Ratio to 2.4 Pressure Ratio.
Vortech is even nice enough to give you the formula to convert from Pressure Ratio to Boost Pressure in PSI

(Formula is at the bottom of the Map. Formula is: Boost Pressure in Pounds of Boost at sea level is:

Pressure Ratio times 14.7 - 14.7 An example is: 1.8 Pressure Ratio

1.8 Pressure Ratio times 14.7 = 26.46 26.46 minus 14.7 = 11.76 psi BOOST PRESSURE.

So if we look at the map again and move to the top right edge of the 70% efficiency island.

And we follow that line downward to the Corrected Mass Flow Numbers going across the map from 10 to 90
we will see the 1.8 and 70% numbers will equal 60 on the mass flow line.

We have talked before about how 1 pound of air mass flow will make 10 horsepower so 60 times 10 will equal
600 horsepower at 11.76 psi of Boost Pressure in the intake manifold at only 40,000 compressor rpm.

So then you ask where did that 40,000 compressor rpm number come from?

If you look on the map again you will see a series of SPEED LINES (almost horizontal lines) going from the left side
of the map to the right side of the map. They start at 20,000 compressor impeller rpm and the speed increases
in 5,000 rpm steps to 50,000 rpm of the compressor wheel. So the supercharger is just cruising along to make 600
horsepower.

So if a Guy wants a bit more horsepower he could raise the pressure ratio to 2.0 (which is almost 15 psi of boost
pressure). The formula says the actual pressure is: 2.0 times 14.7 = 29.4 minus 14.7 = 14.7 psi of boost pressure.

Now you are at 45,000 compressor rpm and at 75 pounds per minute of air mass going thru the engine or 750 HP.

The map also shows the actual corrected Mass Flow Formula numbers the compressor was tested at which are=

545 degrees RANKIN and 28.4 Inches of Mercury = 85.33 degrees F and 13.95 psi

You can use the calculator here http://www.kylesconverter.com/temper...ees-fahrenheit
for the temperature conversion

http://www.kylesconverter.com/pressu...er-square-inch
for the pressure conversion.

Vortech Superchargers shows the SURGE LINE as being a straight line, in reality it is not a perfect line but each engine
combination is slightly different so the SURGE LINE shown is an average surge line for tyhat type of compressor.

Tom V.

ps You can copy and print off my explanation of the Map and the actual Map and then go thru the numbers and formula on your desk
easily.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-08-2019 at 09:25 AM.
  #53  
Old 06-08-2019, 09:50 AM
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ONE COMMENT FOR THE READERS.
MANY ENGINEERS ARE NO SMARTER THAN THE AVERAGE GUY.
THEY HAVE JUST BEEN TRAINED ON HOW TO FIND THE INFORMATION ON THE WEB.

In the old days it was all about memorization and being able to do the calculations on the back of an envelope,
but today time is everything and memory can mess you up at times.

So if you know WHERE to find (on the web) an accurate conversion website like Kyle's
Converters, then you just punch in the numbers ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT THE VALUES
ARE AND WHAT MEASUREMENT SCALE THEY ARE USING IS.

Example Temperature could be in Fahrenheit, It could be in Kelvin, it could be in Celsius,
and it could be in Kelvin. Kyles converter has them all covered.

Example Pressure could be in Atmospheres, it could be in Pounds per square inch (PSI). It could be in Kilopascals, It could be in Inches of Water, Inches of Mercury, or even BARS. No way am I going to try to remember all of those formulas.

So I am teaching you how to do the same stuff I can do and you can skip the 4 or 5 years of college engineering to get there when it comes to being a Boost Guy.

Tom V.

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  #54  
Old 06-08-2019, 12:27 PM
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I see I made a typo on this statement.

Example Temperature could be in Fahrenheit, It could be in Kelvin, it could be in Celsius,
and it could be in Kelvin. Kyles converter has them all covered.

It actually should read

Example Temperature could be in Fahrenheit, It could be in Kelvin, it could be in Celsius,
and it could be in Rankin. Kyles converter has them all covered.

Tom V.

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  #55  
Old 06-08-2019, 07:06 PM
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A couple of Differences between A Centrifugal Supercharger and a Turbocharger.

The Centrifugal Supercharger is directly tied to the engine rpm by the belt driving the unit.
The Belt Ratio can be different for applications but in all cases the Centrifugal Supercharger and the Roots Supercharger are directly tied to the engine rpm.

The Turbocharger on the other hand is not tied directly to the crankshaft and can have the compressor rpm be totally independent of the crankshaft rpm.

By changing the cross-sectional area of the Turbine housing the performance of the Turbine can be changed. This change though may change the backpressure of the engine feeding the turbine.

During initial testing of a new Engine combination, it may be beneficial to try several turbine housings, if they are offered, for a given turbine wheel to find the ideal one for the application. This goes under optimizing the combination of parts selected.

Tom V.

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  #56  
Old 06-08-2019, 08:31 PM
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So What are some of the OTHER advantages of a Turbocharged Engine vs a Supercharged or Large Naturally Aspirated Engine:

1) A properly designed Turbocharged Engine has as much peak power as a much larger Naturally Aspirated Engine. One Pontiac Example of this is Charlie66 and his 1964 vehicle with the 4 cylinder engine and a turbocharger. His engine (200 cid roughly will make 800 horsepower and can easily be driven on the street a hundred miles.

A 2019 Z06 Supercharged Corvette will make 650 lbs/ft of torque and 650 HP and Charlie66 has the owner covered by 150 horsepower in a street race.
The 4 cylinder Pontiac Turbo 1964 vehicle is a real sleeper.

As was said, that Turbocharged power is held in reserve until it is needed.
Charlies engine runs on pump gas E-85 which you can find in many locations.

So the "Advantage" of a Turbo is Power on Demand and Economy the rest of the time.
The Z06 Corvette is driving that Supercharger every rpm that the crankshaft makes.
BUT, with the By-pass System installed on many supercharged installations over the years, the HP might be lower than you think at cruising speeds on the highway.

Attached is a Typical Eaton Style integral By-pass System exploded view.

It shows the Intake, the Internal inter-cooler, and the supercharger and on the right rear of the supercharger the By-pass Control Valve. This valve is open under normal cruise conditions.

The control Valve connect to a Butterfly Valve on a shaft. That butterfly valve (just like a carb butterfly valve) is open and allows air to pass from the supercharger inlet to the Intake manifold "By-passing" the S/C Rotors.
The Butterfly valve closed under acceleration and all of the air is fed thru the supercharger rotors.

Tom V.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-08-2019 at 08:37 PM.
  #57  
Old 06-09-2019, 03:06 PM
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I have mentioned Charlie66 and his 4 cylinder Single Turbocharged Engine several times. His Engine has made 800 HP on the dyno from 4 cylinders and a engine displacement of around 200 cubic inches.

So if we compare that engine with the "Badest of the Bad" The 1973 Porsche 917-30 race car:

Charlie has about 200 cubic inches of displacement for 4 cylinders. or 3.27 Liters of displacement. Charlie make 800 hp with 4 cylinders at about 39 psi. .

The Porsche 917/30 had 5.374 liters of displacement for 12 cylinders.

The Porsche made 1580 horsepower at 39 psi of boost

(Marty Palbykin made approximately the same HP 1580 (with the same boost 39 psi boost pressure.)

The point being, for the same boost pressure, and the right turbos, the engine really does not matter much if it has 12 cylinders or 8 cylinders, or even 4 cylinder and makes 800 HP (1/2 the power of the other two engines).

It all has to do with Air Density in pounds per minute or air and proper fuel flowing thru the engine's intake system.

Tom V.

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  #58  
Old 06-10-2019, 09:36 PM
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Sorry I took the day off from Boosting posts and did tasks in my garage.
Oiled up the aluminum block and the "Short Deck" block, tomorrow I will move the Muncie Trans to the basement
and get the Nash ready to be transported to the shop with the lift.

I really need to go thru my Holley carbs and figure out what I want to sell.
Be a little extra cash for the boys installing the Tanks,inc Fuel Tank and the Two Bosch 044 fuel pumps.

Lots of people over the years have used the Bosch 044 fuel pumps, they will flow 300 liters per hour at 75 psi, a bunch more at normal typical carb pressures or at 15 psi of boost fuel pressure. The deal is you need to make sure you get the real Bosch 044 fuel pump. A Lot of the 044 pumps on the web are knock-offs.

Here is a link to telling them apart. Since a good Fuel pump is part of a good boost system, the info in this post applies.

https://www.driven2automotive.com/bl...44-fuel-pumps/

1st Picture, the Real Bosch 044 Pump is on the right.

2nd Picture, the knockoff does not have a threaded helicoil insert in the pump inlet.

The real 044 pump Look close you can see it in picture #3.

In Picture 4, the knockoff is basically smooth on the main body. The real 044 fuel pump has "Made in Czech Republic" on it.

The last picture is one of the easiest ways to quickly tell the difference.

The real fuel pump has pump discharge "Divider Walls" (next to terminals) "indexed" at 12:00, 3:00, 6:00, and 9:00.

The knockoff fuel pump has "Divider Walls" at the pump discharge (smaller opening next to terminals)
"indexed" at 10:00, 2:00, 4:00, and 8:00.

More info tomorrow.

Tom V.
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Last edited by Tom Vaught; 06-10-2019 at 09:51 PM.
  #59  
Old 06-11-2019, 07:51 AM
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Good info on the Bosch pumps, I was concerned about a similar thing when I bought a pair of Walbro in tank pumps for my new efi turbo combo. Got them direct from a Walbro/ Ti dealer after confirming they were a registered dealer in the UK.
What do you think of the Walbro pumps Tom? They seem to have a good rep.

  #60  
Old 06-11-2019, 01:58 PM
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I am putting one in the Tanks,inc Fuel Tank for my 64 GTO Convertible, this week.
450 Liter per hour Ethanol capable.

When Tanks inc first came out they offered the 255 liter per hour pump for the 64 GTO tank. I have been told that is an older design pump and not E-85 compatible.

I was told the later 400 liter per hour and 450 liter per hour pumps from Walbro ARE e-85 capable therefore the E-15 gas I will have to run in the GTO should be fine for fuel pump durability.

So if your new pumps are the 400 or 450 pump you should be "Fine" based on the info I have. I was told that the Aeromotive pumps are just Branded Pumps made for them by Walbro. Hope that helps.

I was going to run two of the Bosch pumps, and may later on the hardtop vehicle but for now if the 450 liter pump works with e-85 then I will only need one for the life of the 64 GTO.

Tom V.

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