#81  
Old 02-26-2020, 09:09 PM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I think the idea around that is more splash lube and was something suggested quite a bit for a while by various builders when running a solid roller.



1000 wouldn't be bad in an auto if there was a decent converter behind it.

I have this 455 here idling around 900 out of gear, and it only drops to 750 in gear. Has one of those new 9.5" Converters in it from Cliff that drives really nice. I hardly feel it go into gear.

Dad seems to like his 571 idling a little faster too. It idles down to 700 in gear and idles pretty good but he likes it idling up around 850 or so in gear which is up just a smidget over 1000 out of gear. I think dad just likes the sound of the camshaft idling a little faster. Again one of Cliff's converters and it's pretty nice going in and out of gear. Nothing head snapping about it.

The Z my wife drives, I like it idling up around 1050 to 1100, but it's a stick car so doesn't matter much. Just makes it a bit easier to take off, and it makes a little more vacuum for the brakes that way since we are up at 5,000 feet and lose 2-3 inches of vacuum thanks to the laws of physics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tom s View Post
All my pontiacs are stick shift.Like FJ says more splash for the needle bearing. Tom
makes sense.

  #82  
Old 02-26-2020, 09:50 PM
surfsama's Avatar
surfsama surfsama is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bay Area - California
Posts: 427
Default

Just to add one more log to the fire...
I ran the Lunati Morels and they were horribly noisy (and not in the cool mechanical lifter way either). I spoke with a tech at Crower about their offering and he was frank about what they do. He told me they start with the Johnson HR lifter and bench test each before re-packing them under the Crower name. He says they do get rejects.

I put the Crowers in and my valve train is very quite during start and after everything is heated-up. I only preload my lifters to 1/4 turn and I run straight 30wt. My idle is 800 and oil pressure is 13~15psi.

Obviously, I can't verify they really "bench-test" each lifter but I'm happy with the set I got FWIW.

__________________
Only a pawn in game of life.
  #83  
Old 02-27-2020, 12:28 AM
JLMounce JLMounce is online now
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Greeley, Colorado
Posts: 3,679
Send a message via AIM to JLMounce
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfsama View Post
Just to add one more log to the fire...
I ran the Lunati Morels and they were horribly noisy (and not in the cool mechanical lifter way either). I spoke with a tech at Crower about their offering and he was frank about what they do. He told me they start with the Johnson HR lifter and bench test each before re-packing them under the Crower name. He says they do get rejects.

I put the Crowers in and my valve train is very quite during start and after everything is heated-up. I only preload my lifters to 1/4 turn and I run straight 30wt. My idle is 800 and oil pressure is 13~15psi.

Obviously, I can't verify they really "bench-test" each lifter but I'm happy with the set I got FWIW.
This definitely piques my interest since I run nearly the same setup with morel's and see idle oil pressures similar to you. Did you need to change pushrod length as well when you made this swap, or did you drop em in and run what you had?

$800.00 is steep, made steeper by other valvetrain components, but I would certainly consider the upgrade if it would help.

__________________
-Jason
1969 Pontiac Firebird
  #84  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:28 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

The Crowers have been talked about before and there was mention back then that they are reboxed Johnsons.
It's likely the same lifter that Paul Carter sells that he buys straight from Johnson, that is, when they are available. Availability has been hit and miss. When I was doing this recent 455 that's what I wanted to buy. Unfortunately at that time Paul had already been waiting 6 months and there was no ETA on their arrival. They produce them in batches and they weren't high up on the priority list.

  #85  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:42 AM
RocktimusPryme's Avatar
RocktimusPryme RocktimusPryme is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Bedford, IN
Posts: 2,166
Default

I think the noises get louder proportional to how much money is in the motor. My motor was expensive, so every time I hear a noise Im like "What is that?! Is that a rod bearing?!"

So I wish they were quieter just because it would make my blood pressure go down. Ive come close to re-adjusting the valves a few times, but it runs fine so I always talk myself out of it.

__________________
1967 Firebird 462 580hp/590ftlbs
1962 Pontiac Catalina Safari Swapped in Turd of an Olds 455
Owner/Creator Catfish Motorsports
https://www.youtube.com/@CatfishMotorsports
The Following User Says Thank You to RocktimusPryme For This Useful Post:
  #86  
Old 02-27-2020, 09:45 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by RocktimusPryme View Post
I think the noises get louder proportional to how much money is in the motor. .
.....



  #87  
Old 02-27-2020, 01:16 PM
grivera's Avatar
grivera grivera is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Just south of Baltimore
Posts: 4,889
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
I've been following this thread, but haven't chimed in. My engine acts basically the same. At cold idle, it's quiet, as the engine heats up, the valvetrain gets noisy.

I have the Lunati branded Morel's in my engine.

Over time I have kind of pinned it down to lack of pressure at warm idle. at 800rpm, my engine only produces about 13 psi of oil pressure. When the engine is above idle and making between 40-60 psi, the lifters are quiet and you just hear the sewing sound of the HS rockers. Once the oil pressure drops below about 20 psi as the engine idles down, a few of them start clacking.

If your engine behaves like that, there's likely no lifter you can put in it that won't have the same type of personality. The solution is to get the warm idle oil pressure into a better range. That could be an expensive journey depending on what the cause is (oil pump, bearing clearances etc.)

I've learned to live with it until I'm at a point where I need to think about having the bottom end done.
Interesting regarding the oil pressure - and mentioned by Butler in Hot Rod article:


"Butler says that since an engine with smaller-diameter main journals (3-inch) and shorter-stroke crankshafts (4.21-inch or less) is generally less stressful on the bearings, a 60-psi pump may provide adequate lubrication in a modified engine, but an 80-psi pump is a better choice. He says any performance engine with 3.25-inch-diameter main journals and/or a stroker length greater than 4.21 inches should use an 80-psi pump. The greater oil pressure associated with the 80-psi pump improves the strength of the oil film, and better protects the bearings in large journal and/or long-stroke applications, he adds.

Common hobbyist concerns when using an 80-psi oil pump in a street engine include excessive parasitic loss, bearing wash, and premature distributor and/or cam gear wear.

He continues: We've run as much as 100-psi on some engines and have never experienced any bearing wash issues. Excessive distributor or cam gear wear can result, particularly with a bronze gear, but we consider positive cam-gear oiling a must when running a roller camshaft, and we found that it significantly improves distributor gear life.

One area that many hobbyists overlook when selecting an oil pump for a particular engine is camshaft type. Some of the aggressive hydraulic- roller-lobe profiles available today and the high-pressure valvesprings required to effectively maintain valvetrain stability can cause the roller lifters hydraulic internals to bleed down too quickly, and that can create a performance loss. In these instances, additional pressure (75 psi or more) is required to keep the hydraulic lifters working properly, states Butler."

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/...#ixzz3mfkpxR00

__________________
Will Rivera

'69 Firebird 400/461, 290+ E D-Ports, HR 230/236, 4l80E, 8.5 Rear, 3.55 gears
'64 LeMans 400/461, #16 Heads, HR 230/236, TKO600, 9inch Rear, 3.89 gears
'69 LeMans Vert, 350, #47 heads: Non-running project
  #88  
Old 02-27-2020, 01:24 PM
dld's Avatar
dld dld is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: MARYLAND 21061
Posts: 2,052
Default

I have read most of this post. I have near the same cam and heads that author of thread has. Mine Comp HR 236/242/116 and Edelbrock round ports. I used Crower lifters and Crower roller rockers. The push rods were set up using a adjustable push rod and a dial indicator to get the correct Length and lift at valve. contact point is dead center on valve. Valves are adjusted 1/2 turn down.

valve train has NO valve noise. even on start up .

The lifter adjustment is only to account for wear in valve train as engine gets use . If valve float occurs the pump up of the lifter will hold the valve off seat that amount. this could cause valve contact with piston and excessive clearance in valve train until valve spring backs the plunger in lifter down. not sure how all those needles and rollers will like that

also I did use the Butler Schumer blueprinted oil pump 60 psi version. It has 40 psi at 800 rpm hot


Last edited by dld; 02-27-2020 at 01:30 PM.
  #89  
Old 02-27-2020, 02:22 PM
surfsama's Avatar
surfsama surfsama is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Bay Area - California
Posts: 427
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JLMounce View Post
This definitely piques my interest since I run nearly the same setup with morel's and see idle oil pressures similar to you. Did you need to change pushrod length as well when you made this swap, or did you drop em in and run what you had?

$800.00 is steep, made steeper by other valvetrain components, but I would certainly consider the upgrade if it would help.
I see the price of Crower lifters for Pontiacs have increased a bit since I bought them lol.

It certainly was a bitter pill to swallow but living with a car that sounded like the engine had 150K miles on it wasn't going to fly. Yes, I did need to replace the pushrods. As I recall, the Johnson's/Crower are shorter however on the plus side they also weigh slightly less so a little reduction in valvletrain mass too.

I did end-up selling the Lunati (Morels) and that off-set some of the cost.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Crower.jpg
Views:	137
Size:	16.9 KB
ID:	533153  

__________________
Only a pawn in game of life.
  #90  
Old 03-02-2020, 08:35 PM
ponjohn's Avatar
ponjohn ponjohn is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 9,530
Default

The Crane catalogue show olds and pontiac use the same roller lifter.

Is that accurate?

  #91  
Old 03-02-2020, 09:50 PM
Stripes's Avatar
Stripes Stripes is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 384
Default

I run a 80 lb pump and the lifter noise was not significantly different with 10w30 to 15w50 HR oil, 1/4, 1/2 or 1 turn preload. I can live with it but I wish I had a solid roller now, with less noise.

  #92  
Old 03-23-2020, 04:10 PM
AG's Avatar
AG AG is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NH
Posts: 3,240
Default

Any update?

__________________
1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule.
  #93  
Old 03-23-2020, 06:23 PM
Stripes's Avatar
Stripes Stripes is offline
Senior Chief
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: DFW area, Texas
Posts: 384
Default

I have set the pre-load at 1/4, 1/2, 1, and 1,5 turns with no change in lifter noise. I can bottom the lifter out and make the lifters quiet, so I am certain its a lifter noise. Obviously i don't want to run bottomed out and backing off a turn makes them sound very similar to all the other pre-load settings. I started with thick oil 15/50 and moved to 10/30. No change in noise noted. The lifters are louder when the engine is warmed up, 190F. Dead cold its pretty quiet for about 5 minutes. It doesn't seem to be just 1 or 2 sets, they all seem to make noise. With the valve covers on, hood down, an insulator under the hood,2.5" magna flow mufflers straight thrus, it's still audible at idle. Running down the road I do not hear it. I sent Butler a video and they were uncertain if it was "excessive" noting they are loud. I'm unsure what else to do but possible drive it a few hundred miles, and see if it gets louder or stays the same. I may try another set of shorter pushrods, but it seems like a long shot to see an improvement. The rockers aren't striking anything or running off the valve stem edge, and I selected the pushrods using an adjustable pushrod, dial indicator and photos of everything to Butler. Maybe I'm the problem, expecting a roller hydraulic $600 sounding lifter to sound comparable to a set of $100 hydraulic flat tappets?

  #94  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:03 PM
69 Limelight 69 Limelight is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Posts: 171
Default 455 Comp Hydraulic Roller Lifters Too Loud

I don't think you're the problem to expect your hydraulic rollers to be as quiet as hydraulic flat tappets. My hydraulic rollers are as quiet as my previous hydraulic flat tappets which means DEAD QUIET, NO NOISE. I have no idea what your problem is but, here is what I do know. I have Bullet hydraulic rollers (which are Morels made by Callies with Bullet stamp on them). (Instructions that came with them say right on them Callies.) I run these Bullet lifters on a Bullet/Ultradyne cam custom specked by Tim Goolsby at Bullet/Ultradyne with PAC springs, retainers and locks, that he also specked. When I was first talking to him about cam, I expressed concern about noisy, ticking lifters (after all the threads about that on this forum) and he assured me I'd be fine, satisfied and happy and I am. My engine does not have the "famous" lifter bore modification. I run 20W-50 (but have run 10W-30 with no difference. Lifters didn't make one tick on initial start up after cam installation (did drill prime, though) and recently car sat 3 months without being started and no tick on start up. I don.t know your cam specs but, my cam is a mild grind. 279/287, 225/233 @ .050 on 112 LSA, .516" lift intake and exhaust.FYI
Good luck. Hope you get to bottom of your noise, get it corrected and enjoy a nice quiet valvetrain.

  #95  
Old 03-23-2020, 08:28 PM
AG's Avatar
AG AG is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NH
Posts: 3,240
Default

The problem is the lifters. The CC shavers are junk, at least the ones I got in 2017. You are the fourth person I know with this problem.

__________________
1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule.
  #96  
Old 03-24-2020, 09:57 AM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by AG View Post
The problem is the lifters. The CC shavers are junk, at least the ones I got in 2017. You are the fourth person I know with this problem.
junk? i thought the comp "S" lifters were supposed to be the newer better improved lifters & the original ones prior to ~2015 were the noisy ones everyone called junk?

  #97  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:05 AM
Formulajones's Avatar
Formulajones Formulajones is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 10,794
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
junk? i thought the comp "S" lifters were supposed to be the newer better improved lifters & the original ones prior to ~2015 were the noisy ones everyone called junk?
I've run both of the comp versions before 2015 and after, and never had a problem with either version, they were all dead quiet. I think I posted pictures of the differences earlier in this thread somewhere, or one of these many lifter threads we've had. And while the differences are very noticeable they both actually worked just fine for me.

  #98  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:26 AM
AG's Avatar
AG AG is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: NH
Posts: 3,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 78w72 View Post
junk? i thought the comp "S" lifters were supposed to be the newer better improved lifters & the original ones prior to ~2015 were the noisy ones everyone called junk?
Like I said, fourth person I know who had problems with CC HR lifters from the 2017 era. Apparently not everyone is having similar issues. I can only report my experiences and those of others who are having similar issues. I went through a nitemare with CC last summer with my brother's lifters. A wheel on one broke immediately on start-up and ruined a lobe on the cam and others collapsed. Went through a cam repair and two lifter exchanges with CC with collapse lifters and he still has a motor that makes horrible noises similar to HWYSTAR, I don't even want to start it up. Next step is getting Johnson's through Butler. I have a brand new set of CC shavers that I will not use, anyone want to buy them? Never out of the package.

__________________
1967 Firechicken, 499", Edl heads, 262/266@0.050" duration and 0.627"/0.643 lift SR cam, 3.90 gear, 28" tire, 3550#. 10.01@134.3 mph with a 1.45 60'. Still WAY under the rollbar rule.
  #99  
Old 03-24-2020, 10:31 AM
tom s tom s is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: long beach ca usa
Posts: 18,764
Default

PM me with what you want for the new junk lifters!Tom

  #100  
Old 03-24-2020, 11:06 AM
78w72 78w72 is offline
Ultimate Warrior
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: iowa
Posts: 4,683
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Formulajones View Post
I've run both of the comp versions before 2015 and after, and never had a problem with either version, they were all dead quiet. I think I posted pictures of the differences earlier in this thread somewhere, or one of these many lifter threads we've had. And while the differences are very noticeable they both actually worked just fine for me.
i remember seeing those pics & the new ones are supposed to have the oil band in the correct location for pontiacs. i ran both versions as well. the first ones had a couple tickers that weren't terrible but noticeable, so after talking with dave at SD who i bought them from & comps tech line they suggested trying some seafoam in the oil, which did nothing... i could've lived with them but decided to ask for warranty replacement. SD & comp were great at handling that & sent me a new set of the "S" ones... they are definitely quieter & after ~4 years of street use & lots of drag strip time they are still doing fine, i get a very slight tick when fully heat soaked on a hot summer day & some hard driving, but no more than what the full roller HS rockers do. & i have not checked the adjustment or tried going a little more on the preload since installing them. i might play with that this season if i get bored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AG View Post
Like I said, fourth person I know who had problems with CC HR lifters from the 2017 era. Apparently not everyone is having similar issues. I can only report my experiences and those of others who are having similar issues. I went through a nitemare with CC last summer with my brother's lifters. A wheel on one broke immediately on start-up and ruined a lobe on the cam and others collapsed. Went through a cam repair and two lifter exchanges with CC with collapse lifters and he still has a motor that makes horrible noises similar to HWYSTAR, I don't even want to start it up. Next step is getting Johnson's through Butler. I have a brand new set of CC shavers that I will not use, anyone want to buy them? Never out of the package.
that stinks to hear about the one breaking or other noise issues... but even with as many reports we read about tickers, there are probably 10's of thousands of them in service doing fine. as with most things, you only read/hear about the small percentage that have issues, i dont think that qualifies them as "junk."

Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:17 PM.

 

About Us

The PY Online Forums is the largest online gathering of Pontiac enthusiasts anywhere in the world. Founded in 1991, it was also the first online forum for people to gather and talk about their Pontiacs. Since then, it has become the mecca of Pontiac technical data and knowledge that no other place can surpass.

 




Copyright © 2017