[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by gtoric

Shipping weight on a '64 LeMans is 2,995 lbs. according to the Standard Catalog of American Cars. That figure is for a base car with five gallons of gas, no driver. Start adding options like the V8, power steering, power brakes, and 200 lbs of driver, pretty soon you've got a 3,500 lb car. But, all of the calculations that I made for the LOLMCC show were based on shipping weight. Here's our listing for 1964 Pontiacs:

Catalina (3750 lbs)
4V 389/320 11.72:1
6V 389/330 11.36:1
6V 421/350 10.71:1
6V 421/370 HO 10.14:1

Star Chief (3885)
6V 389/330 11.77:1
6V 421/350 11.10:1
6V 421/370 HO 10.50:1

Bonneville (3920)
6V 389/330 11.88:1
6V 421/350 11.20:1
6v 421/370 HO 11.14:1

Grand Prix (3930)
6V 389/330 11.91:1
6V 421/350 11.23:1
6v 421/370 HO 11.17:1

Tempest/Tempest Custom (2930)
4V 326/280 HO 10.46:1

LeMans (2995)
4V 326/280 HO 10.70:1

LeMans GTO (3126)
4V 389/325 9.62:1
6V 389/348 8.98:1

OMG!! A Bonne is 1000 pounds more than a Lemans?? I never thought about it. Thats a lot of metal.

[Keith Seymore]

For comparison purposes, my '63 GP (fully loaded) weighs 4,321 lbs.

K

[Father&Son73T/A]

I thought the 64 442 came out before the 64 GTO?

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Father&Son73T/A

I thought the 64 442 came out before the 64 GTO?

Your really rockin' the boat there Duane.

[Father&Son73T/A]

Originally Posted by Old Blue 66

Your really rockin' the boat there Duane.

What's up Paul?,how ya doin bud?

[Old Goat 67]

Originally Posted by Father&Son73T/A
I thought the 64 442 came out before the 64 GTO?

And then the fight started?

[Old Blue 66]

Originally Posted by Father&Son73T/A

What's up Paul?,how ya doin bud?

Hey what is an Oldsmobile, they still make those things??

Just kidding Duane. Im doing well. Hope you and the family have a great holiday.

["QUICK-SILVER"]

gtoric;
How or does your club recognize 75 to 78 cars? And in the 79 to current "Modern Muscle", what does it take to make the class, was there a ratio change on horse power to weight?

Just curious, seen several articles about the '79' 400 4 speed Firebird/TA being called the last muscle car.

[Father&Son73T/A]

Originally Posted by "QUICK-SILVER"

gtoric;


Just curious, seen several articles about the '79' 400 4 speed Firebird/TA being called the last muscle car.

I couldn't agree more

[poison heart]

Anyone have the length of a '64 GTO? I measured my '62 Catalina, my '59 Star Chief and my '67 Skylark.

1959 Star Chief 228" bumper to bumper
'62 Cat 208" bumper to bumper
'67 'Lark 206" bumper to bumper

So the difference between a fullsize and a midsize is oly 2"???

[Keith Seymore]

This just in -

Mr Wangers has spoken (I suspect he knows a thing or two about this topic ):

[ Quote]

"Old Cars Weekly" Editor Angelo Van Bogart posed the question "what is the true American Muscle Car?" I thought you'd be interested in my answer which I knocked off in my "spare-time".

Jim Wangers




To borrow your expression, Angelo…

I thought I'd come out from behind my curtain for what I consider to be "The True American Muscle Car". After showing respect for the early Ford flathead V8 and other high priced straight 8's, V8's, V12's and even a V16 or two, the world of popularly priced high performance really didn’t begin until after the end of WWII.

The appearance of the Kettering OHV V8 in the Olds Rocket and Cadillac in 1949 really kicked off a long line of big engine full-size cars. We saw the infamous Chrysler Hemi, a big V8 in Ford's Lincoln, a V-8 Studebaker, another in Buick and finally by the mid-50's everybody including Ford, Chevy and Pontiac were building full-size cars with big and even “great big” V8's. I will call these AMERICAN PERFORMANCE CARS.

In the early 1960's under much pressure, the American car makers introduced a mid-sized or intermediate model. These coupes, convertibles and sedans were designed with sixes and small V8’s to provide competitive passenger comfort and a dramatic increase in fuel economy. John DeLorean and his bright engineering team at Pontiac got the idea to copy the hot rod community and "stuff” one of their big engines into their intermediate sized Tempest. Thus was born the GTO. Needless to say it was a great idea and every competitive manufacturer jumped in resulting in the Chevelle SS, Olds 442, Buick Grand Sport, Ford Fairlane GTA and it’s sister Mercury, the Plymouth GTX, and the Dodge R/T. The result: the true AMERICAN MUSCLE CAR, actually the first and the proper use of that term. (Some recognition of the AMC Rambler Rebel effort in 1957 is worthy of mention here, although it was a 4-dr sedan, not promoted well and resulting in a one year life span.)

The European concept of a two-passenger sports roadster had modestly penetrated the US in the early '50's with nameplates like Jaguar, MG, and Triumph. This prompted American car makers like Chevrolet, Ford, AMC, and Kaiser, to introduce entries. Since they were two-passenger cars they earned the name “sports car” even though they lacked many of the sophisticated handling capabilities that name promised. The Chevrolet Corvette, the Ford Thunderbird, the Nash Healey, and the Kaiser Darrin caused a stir introducing a new segment called AMERICAN SPORTS CARS.

These two-passenger cars suffered limited market appeal so the need for a compromise package featuring 2-passenger style and 4-passenger comfort became obvious. The result, THE AMERICAN PONY CAR, named deservingly after the first and most successful entrant in the field, the famous Ford Mustang. Within a modest timeframe the Chevrolet Camaro, Pontiac Firebird, Mercury Cougar, Dodge Challenger, Plymouth Barracuda and the AMC Javelin all joined the pack. It would naturally follow that the same big cube powerplants featured in Muscle Cars would be offered in special versions of these pony cars, ala Camero Z/28, Firebird Trans Am etc. Nevertheless they were still PONY CARS.

As the market changed into the new millennium, bigger more sophisticated horsepower found its way into 4-dr. Sedans (Cadillac CTS-V), Trucks (Ford Lightening), Wagons (Dodge Magnum), and SUV's (Jeep Grand Cherokee), compounding the issue, yet all earning the “right” to be called MUSCLE CARS.

But I say let’s respect their heritage. It is my opinion that we should still recognize the four distinct classes: THE PERFORMANCE CAR, THE MUSCLE CAR, THE SPORTS CAR and THE PONY CAR. We SHOULD also learn to accept terms MUSCLE TRUCK and the MUSCLE WAGON too.


Jim Wangers

[Endquote]

[poison heart]

Thats good stuff, Thanks

I'm still curious on bumper to bumper length of a '64 GTO.

[chuckmnv]

Poisonheart -
According to John Gunnell's Standard Catalog of Pontiac, 1926-2002, Star Chiefs and Bonnevilles had overall lengths of 220 inches; Catalinas and Grand Prix were 213 inches; and All Tempests (GTO) were 203 inches.
cm

[poison heart]

Are those numbers all for '64s?

If so, I'm surprised that Catalinas shrank from 59-62 and then grew from 62-64. Thanks for the info

So there's only a 5" difference between a 62 Catalina and a '64 GTO.

[Sirrotica]

It's not so much overall length as it is wheelbase, Musclecars were usually under 116 inches and the full size cars were over this figure.

[Region Warrior]

Originally Posted by Keith Seymore

This just in -

Mr Wangers has spoken (I suspect he knows a thing or two about this topic ;
[Endquote]

[Keith Seymore]

Originally Posted by Region Warrior

...

[Region Warrior]

Not that i dont consider the GTO the 1st "recognized", just growing up in the 60's i have a different view.
My father beat every factory "muscle" car of the 60's and 70's with his 1st ever new car he bought in 57.
All us kids grew up in it until he bought his 2nd new car in 65.
Did he mod it?
Cant say for sure, but still remember handing him tools to R&I the heads in 64 when i was 5 yrs old(started me young ).
It was a factory 370-A/T-4.10 geared Super Chief.
A tank by any standards, but still a "muscle car" imo.

[GTOPLACE]

Remember The Beach Boys or was it Jan and Dean tune about the fuel injected Stingray and the 413? They had it that the Stingray won, but after 30 years of debate, the Mopar boys finally got a real race with the '62 Dodge and a '63 F.I. Stingray and the Dodge ran off and left the vette. That is what would have happened every time, but the song had it wrong. That little Dodge weighed in at 3,050 lbs. 413 Max Wedge with 410 HP. If that is not the true definition of a musclecar, what is? 1963 got the 426 Wedge. Why are these cars overlooked as the 1st musclecar?

[chuckmnv]

I'll only answer that, yes, that info is for the 64's.

As for the Dodge, what was it, full size? If so, altho a performer, not a "Muscle car." The Chrysler 300 was also a performer, but not a muscle car as it was full size. IMHO, a muscle car is as described by Wangers: medium size with a full-sized engine dropped in.
cm