[Steve Hoog]

Those articles were amazing, I've been waiting for years to hear from Mr. Nell and I sure hope he doesn't stop there.

There could be no better source in the world than Mr. Nell in ANY Pontiac engine matters as far as I'm concerned.

Tom V... Thanks for talking to Mr. Nell for us.

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Tom,

I saw an article with Max kneeling down next to his engine. I also used to have the article on the Hemi Pontiac from Hot Rod, I think it was.

If anyone has been around the autoindustry like some of us, they all know that the engine tech centers do stuff like this all the time. It is R & D mostly. Production Engineering has to buy it if anything has to be produced.

We all know that some things got through by other methods.

If you go to the GM tech center, you can see a White Grand Prix I think it is like a 69. It is complete turbine engine car with all the documented testing results. (I worked with GM engineers @ Detroit Diesel Allison on the 1985 turbine engine development for cars.....$1.5 million dollar grant). GM plants bid on these projects. The biggest issue with turbine cars is accomplishing regen. The honeycomb principle was such a cool idea.

Pontiac has made just about everything over the years.

Did any of you see the 1960 SuperCharged Fuelinjected Bonneville that was a Prototype car ended up in a car lot in Ohio? I think that was it if my memory serves correct, unless that was a hoax.

Lynn

[NHRASuperStock455SD]

Yeah Tom, Thanks for the feed back from Tom, it is really cool. I am sure when we get a RA-V head, a set will make it to him for his eyes to see. It would be nice to know all the ins and outs of things that Pontiac tried from his prospective.

Lynn

[Dragncar]

Just got back from the track,took second.Slicks went away.Tell you guys what,I got the information from a guy in Washington state who has a buissness restoring/modifying Pontiacs.High dollar stuff.I bought my billet main caps from him and we had a discusion about the engine.(SOHC427).He told me about a rich friend of his who had one of them.I still have his number and I will try and get in touch with him and I will let you guy know what I find out.I have recieved a lot of information about the SOHC 428 and the RAV and what was planned from Dan Whittmore who worked for Pontiac back in the day and had discusions with Mr. Nell. From the pictures I have seen it seems like a few running engines should have been finished.

[Brian Baker]

Mr. Nell said it never happened. End of story.

[Dragncar]

I just got off the phone with the guys wife.I will have to wait around a week before I can talk to him.He is in ths I.C.U. with shortness of breath and chest pains.But I am going to follow up the best I can and try and document the best I can.It should be interesting at any rate.The thing is Pontiac tried to build all kinds of high HP engines and was kept from putting them in cars,usualy Chevorlette was the culprit.They had to be the fastest.Pontiac had the bigest balls in GM.Motors like the RAV,10-1 RAIV headed 455s with SD rods(it beacame the SD455),421 and 428 SOHC.427 Hemi never were allowed to be put in production cars.Pontiac was always forced to play with one hand behind thier back.Chevy had the LS6 in the 70 Chevelle,we had a cast rod,cast piston,standard exaust manifolds,small cam with a iron intake in the 70 GTO.It was like the knife to a gunnfight deal.Even the 390 horse 428 had to be put in a big boat,how come it never ended up in a 68-69 Firebird.Camaros had 427s.Our best motors should not have been the RAIV and the SD455.I could go on and on but it just pi$$es me off,so I wont.Anyway I will follow up the best I can.It just seems that with the parts for the engine that we know were built some one had to have put them together at some point.Oldsmobile built a OHC 455 Hemi and it made 600HP at 6000RPM,700@7000 and 800 at 8000 RPM.All kinds of Pontiac and Olds and maybe Buick engine programs were snuffed by Chevy.Which is as good reason as any hate on chevy.

[Brian Baker]

I'd be interested in what he has to say as well. I wasn't trying to be a smart a.$$ with my last post...Mr. Nell was in charge of alot of this one-off engineering going on at the time, and if he says the engine never existed, it never existed...that's all I'm saying. Perhaps your contact has information on something else entirely besides this 427 SOHC and is confusing the info?

[Tom Vaught]

When I first talked to Tom about this post he too initially was thinking about the older DOHC and SOHC type engines, why he provided that info. When I mentioned the 427 tunnel port hemi deal, then he said "I don't think so, I never saw the engine run."

Tom V.

ps Hope your contact makes it and all is well.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by theoldone

The only way you get a motor to make a LOT of high rpm HP, is to LOWER the velocity of the ports in the low-mid rpm range. A port only flows so "fast", when it reaches the speed of sound (goes sonic), it quits flowing. So build a head with lots of velocity at idle and mid range, it's a dog at high end and gets WALKED ON by a 1964 Ford 427 ancient wedge engine. Keep that in mind.

A motor has to start out with LOW velocity to make high rpm HP. Otherwise, the port just reach sonic sooner and quit flowing. You got it all mixed up there. Sure, you can choke the ports down and make more mid range torque- but without a doubt, you will lose high RPM power.

The motors that rule the roost, are high rpm motors, not mid-range motors.

================================================== =====

who said anything about mid- range motors? not me, you did...........i believe you are mixed up..............

I have a better understanding of head flow than you have of a mega brace in a pontiac block.........

and I have done my own engine/portwork for years and installed several mega braces................ pic attached..............

sorry to be a smart a, but instead of contributing with experience, etc.,

lectures of your superior knowledge are not needed...............

[Brian Baker]

Originally Posted by J.C.you

I have a better understanding of head flow than you have of a mega brace in a pontiac block

Yowza! That's gotta' leave a mark...funniest comment I've heard in the race section for some time now. Good one, JCU.

[Steve Hoog]

Some one help me here, was this thread about whether Pontiac Engineering was working on a special hemi design, or how to make the best flow and put braces in the lifter gallery?

How can you possibly take an interesting possibility of a hemi, get Tom V to contact one of the most important engineers at Pontiac, and turn it into a mud sling over who knows the most.... I'm not even sure "most" of what?

No wonder this got locked.

[J.C.you]

Originally Posted by steved400

Some one help me here, was this thread about whether Pontiac Engineering was working on a special hemi design, or how to make the best flow and put braces in the lifter gallery?

How can you possibly take an interesting possibility of a hemi, get Tom V to contact one of the most important engineers at Pontiac, and turn it into a mud sling over who knows the most.... I'm not even sure "most" of what?

No wonder this got locked.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

if you will go back and look at the original post, the thought was not only about whether there was a pontiac hemi project,

but it was about a current tech, head design discussion/debate........... which i replied to on the subject...................

i only defended my original statement, which the old one replied out of context.....

i was not involved in the other locked thread.........

[Jack Gifford]

Originally Posted by pontiac jack

"...the Advance Design Group headed by Hulki Aldikacti."
"Pontiac's chief engineer, Steve Malone..."
"... General Manager Jim McDonald ..."

To repeat myself:

I sure don't know whether any were built. Could we possibly contact Aldikacti or Malone or McDonald?


Update: Internet browsing shows-

Hulki Aldikacti "Father of the Fiero".
Steve Malone "...still spry at 87..." at some 2004 event in Michigan.
Jim McDonald "...a GM Executive director of SPO..." in 2003.

Seems like there's SOME chance that we might contact one or more of these gentlemen. Anybody have any suggestions as to how?

[Steve Hoog]

Tom Nell has been literally silent about Pontiac’s since 1973, his recent HPP endeavor and this post by Tom V are the first communications from Nell that I am aware of. I consider Mr. Nell as one of the top few High Performance Pontiac Engineers still alive and capable of sharing some incredible history with the general Pontiac public.

When some one like Tom V draws some one like Tom Nell into a discussion; whether Nell will see it or not, you should treat it with the utmost respect. Do you think Tom V will be inclined to call Mr. Nell again after being badgered?

Tom V wanting too and being able to call Mr. Nell is a MOST incredible resource to this board; we should protect it as best possible.

[Dragncar]

It has been about 3 years since I talked to him,and I am almost positive that is the motor we were talking about.I at least am sure it was a OHC Pontiac V8.Everyone has seen the pictures of the block,heads,crank,rods,intake ect.I just find it hard to fathom that it was never all put together and fired up.If he says it was I will ask for pictures or something to document it.

[JSAauto]

Yeah Steved400...
Leave the mud slinging to me and Brian (kidding)

[Tom Vaught]

Quote by Dragncar:

"It has been about 3 years since I talked to him,and I am almost positive that is the motor we were talking about.I at least am sure it was a OHC Pontiac V8. Everyone has seen the pictures of the block,heads,crank,rods,intake ect.I just find it hard to fathom that it was never all put together and fired up.If he says it was I will ask for pictures or something to document it."

Here is the deal, We have one set of pictures for a Tunnel Port 427 mechanical injected Pontiac engine in a Hot Rod Magazine.

Years ago I sold a FULL SET of TWIN TURBO 421 CID parts to Randy Williams. I originally spotted the Turbo Manifolds as part of a magazine spread someone did on Smokey Yunick's garage. I was able to later purchase the factory prototype turbo manifolds and down pipes from another person. When I first saw the manifolds from the article and called Smokey he said the manifolds were not for a Pontiac and I was mistaken. I later called Smokey again and told him I owned the manifolds and the down pipes and asked "What was the real story?" He later told me that this was a special Delorean deal that few people were aware of. Everything was done outside of Pontiac. Maybe the 427 deal was a similar thing that Tom Nell would not be aware of. I look forward to seeing your info.

Randy received two turbo exhaust manifolds, two down pipes, two correct wastegates, a correct cross-ram intake manifold, the correct special turbo camshaft, two correct turbos, and some other minor parts. All of the parts fit a 63-64 BIG CAR chassis. A picture of me and the parts appeared in an issue of Pontiac Enthusiast magazine some years ago.

Smokey's comment was that the parts were to replace the 421 SD dual quad engine with a very fast powerful street engine that was mild mannered until "you pulled the trigger"

The program was cancelled after the blow-thru carburetor calibration on the twin AFB carbs caused one carb to leave the intake manifold, soar thru Smokeys Garage's roof, and start a fire on the stand.

Smokey says he told Delorean to "Get that crap out of here".

More historical info for the board.

Tom V.

[Steve Hoog]

"Get that crap out of here". HAHA

[Tom Vaught]

Yep, Smokey had a way with words for sure.

Did work for the big Automakers, was a big man among big men, was a pilot I believe in WWII, and was one of the most innovative guys I believe I have ever met. (Hot Vapor engine comes to mind).
It was really just a turbocharged engine but ran really high intake
manifold temperatures. He is missed.

Tom V.

[Region Warrior]

Office bosses(names in magazines), rarely know what middle management (hands on guys), are up to. Thank goodness